Evangelion 2.0 Complete Records Collection

"You mean you couldn't read the questions in Japanese?" "Right, I haven't learned all the Chinese characters yet. We didn't study it in college over there." This page or section is in need of an accurate translation. Please help out if you know Japanese! (This is meant to be informative since chances of an official translation are slim.) Please edit this article or discuss this issue on the talk page

Title	Evangelion: 2.0 You Can (Not) Advance Complete Records Collection
Author	Ryusuke Hikawa (氷川竜介)
Original Publication Date	September 2010
Publisher	khara
Pages	362 + 436 + 232 + 292
Dimensions	32.5 x 23.5 x 10.5 cm/5490g

The Evangelion 2.0: You Can (Not) Advance Complete Records Collection (ヱヴァンゲリヲン新劇場版：破 全記録全集)(ISBN 978-4-905033-00-4) is a massive collection of material related to the second Rebuild movie. It consists of four books packed together in a cardboard box. The first two books, hardcover and also in a hard slip cover, contains everything from interviews with staff to concept art and a breakdown of the movie cut by cut. The other two books are the storyboard for the movie split into avant+A+B and C+D parts.

2.22 FILM

FILM

A breakdown of the entire movie cut by cut, with dialogue under some shots. From the khara logo all the way to the end trailer and credits.

music cue sheet

Each track labled along with the length and from which to which cut it plays.

additional scenario

All the background dialogue scripts broken down cut by cut including the english and russian versions where it was actually spoken in the film.

poster

A foldout poster of Asuka drawn up by Sadamoto

archives

archives

Character design and reference images, rough work and detailed finalized designs for many thing, unused early concepts, Eva and angel designs, 3D models of various vehicles, buildings and other structures, layout pages, monitor display screens and generally a metric ton of stuff.

Images here further reinforce Eva's official height of 80m from the ground to the top of the pylons by putting them first on a 4m grid with many other structures and vehicles and on the next page on a 2m grid for a more detailed comparison of various Eva body parts to vehicles and buildings. Again this is assumed to apply to Rebuild only.

art

Concept paintings of the various scenes from the movie.

interview

Kazuya Tsurumaki - Director (2009/04/22; 2009/05/18; 2009/10/23)

Note: This is an incomplete translation. Some parts are untranslated. Please PM me if you are interested in helping

Translation by: Number-kun
Compilation by: Gwern

A major turning point following the ‘Prelude’ premiere

To begin with, I’d like to speak with you for the program to be distributed before the premiere. According to Chief Director Anno’s intention, it was decided that we would “publish an interview with Makki entitled ‘the man who destroyed Eva.’”37 Before we begin, I’d first like to confirm that you were made aware of that intention.

Tsurumaki: This seems suspicious (laughs). As far as making me into “the criminal responsible for destroying [Eva]” is concerned, I’ll resist with all my might.

Only, if we look at “Break” as a destroyed Eva, surely everyone would want to know the details of how and why this happened.

Tsurumaki: As far as [the title] “Break” is concerned, Anno-san probably discovered a new reason for it part of the way through. As usual. Although, I think it would have been better if Anno-san had taken the lead in destroying [Eva] himself. [It would surely have been difficult for him to destroy it. I think he well understood that, and had no choice [but to do as he did]. However, it was not myself alone who destroyed Eva. Even Masayuki-san, or Sadamoto-san, who writes the manga, would have been fine [for the interview].

This successful “destruction” was unexpectedly the core [of the film]. So [the conception of] a “jo—ha—kyuu” [序破急] structure where you would begin destroying Eva in the second part was not present from the beginning?

Tsurumaki: In the initial stages we thought more in terms of a recap or summary film; we didn’t think that we would “break” [anything]. We decided upon the subtitles “jo—ha—kyuu” themselves relatively early on. They only had the meaning “1, 2, 3” -at the time I didn’t think that “Ha” [“Break”] had any special significance. The development of the story of “Break” was already underway before we started work on “Prelude”.

I have the impression that the development of “Prelude” and “Break” began at the same time.

Tsurumaki: Right. We decided, with relatively few objections, that we would bring “Prelude” to a climax with episode six of the TV series, and immediately after that we began developing the story of “Break”. However, work on “Prelude” became increasingly hectic, so we decided to just focus on making “Prelude” first. We returned to “Break” once we had just about finished “Prelude”.

For my part, I was reading through the script for “Break” around the time “Prelude” was completed (the latter part of August 2007). Also, (Shinji) Higuchi-san was supposed to have drawn the storyboards for “Break” that summer. At this point, the contents [of the film] are probably quite different [than they were, at that point].

Tsurumaki: It would turn out that more than just the plot would be developed further. In any case, after the premiere of “Prelude”, Anno-san proposed that we include more of the new character, Mari, and it was decided that we would revisit the script. My impression was that “Prelude” was received more favorably than expected; furthermore, the preview for the next film was very well received. So, I think Anno-san probably thought, “I want to give the viewers more service”. Probably, [his] specific means [of doing that] was to place Mari more prominently [in the film].

Considering Anno’s “spirit of service”, that would naturally be the case, right? So, that would lead to [Anno] increasing the number of Mari’s appearances?

Tsurumaki: The truth is, at the earliest stage of planning, Mari was such a character that, in the extreme case, if she hadn’t spoken at all, it would have been okay. For example, Misato just reading the materials on her, [and saying] “It seems that Unit-05 was in Hong Kong and had a battle with an angel. The pilot was this person”—would have been fine, I think…

In that case, she would become an amazingly weak character.

Tsurumaki: Yeah. The appearance of a new character and Eva Unit-05 was requested by executive producer (Toshimichi) Otsuki-san. I think the motive was a commercial one—to strengthen the appeal of the film.

Surely, the new films themselves become a burden to the extent they represent a story that preexists the new character; you had to “create carefully”, right?

Tsurumaki: [Yes,] because at first we intended [simply] to summarize the original series. For example, the current structure in which the new character is actively involved before the main titles was put in place at that stage in the film’s plot [development]. In addition, [she] would appear only once more, watching the battle just before the climax. That was the extent to which she appeared.

So, she was hardly related to the characters of the original story.

Tsurumaki: It’s Anno-san’s usual method. He allows possibilities to remain without making up his mind. By no means have things been decided. Because, if he was bound to a decision, he wouldn’t be able to do anything but that. He was still undecided about how to handle her, and at that time he probably thought that introducing her but leaving her without definite relations [to anything] would be safe for the moment.

I see. In a different set of circumstances, I would also have thought, “As expected, the storyline of Eva is quite fixed, and new interventions are not possible”.

Tsurumaki: Naturally. Therefore, daring to have her appear at the core of the story, even more, bringing her close to the center of the drama—in short, we intended to make her a character who would change the story. That was the major shift following the premiere of “Prelude”.

What occurred with the increase of Mari’s scenes

The result being that [the story] would become increasingly different from the script that you had prepared?

Tsurumaki: We were almost starting everything over again. We had hardly thought about what would be changed, and how it would be changed, in order to incorporate Mari. It was from that point, I think, that we really began.

So, the question of how to destroy Eva ends up really being the question of how to connect Mari [to the existing story].

Tsurumaki: Right. However, while we had resolved to change [the story], Anno-san had for one reason or another not thought at all about the elements of Mari’s character. As a result, I was continually requesting explanations in regard to them. When I requested an explanation of Mari’s character before we began doing the storyboards for the pre-title sequence, Anno-san gave me a rather abstract, “thematic” explanation.

“Thematic?”

Tsurumaki: It was, “By introducing Mari, we will destroy the world of Eva”. Concerning this idea of Mari as a character who represents the subtitle “Break”, the explanation that we would directly project her “thematic” character traits onto the story was not sufficient, so I just smiled and nodded. However, we were about to draw the storyboards without something essential—Mari’s concrete character was undetermined. The resulting stress would continue for a long time [after that].

The establishment of her character—in other words, her personality?

Tsurumaki: Is she a girl with a calm demeanor, or a girl with an intense personality, or a dojikko [clumsy girl]? Even that much wasn’t clear. I felt like it changed each time the script was revised. Even if the theme of her character was “the destruction of Eva’s story”, there were numerous concrete ways you could conceive of doing that. In the extreme case, she could “steal” Shinji and destroy all his relationships up to that point, or act as a “nonsense” character who would destroy the “serious” worldview [of Eva]. As there was no trace of a [fixed] methodology according to which she would destroy [Eva], the arguments concerning her continued endlessly.

Which parts did the arguments center upon?

Tsurumaki: Certainly Mari’s appearances had increased. Furthermore, if there were scenes where Mari appeared by herself, that was still fine. Even in the early stages of the plot[’s development], we didn’t really feel that such scenes were a problem. The difficulty lay in her relationships with other characters. Especially, if we intended to portray a relationship between Shinji and Mari, it would entail strange things happening. At one point she would have Rei Ayanami’s role in relation to Shinji, at another point Asuka’s, at another point Misato’s. There was a sense that her character was changing depending upon the circumstances of each scene. In the first place, if it’s Rei’s role, Rei herself can do it, and if it’s Asuka’s role, Asuka herself can do it. To the extent that this newly arrived character, Mari, is just partially substituting for roles that other people have carried out up until now, the story itself is really unchanged. My impression was, if that’s going to be the case, Mari is probably not needed.

Because a new character is introduced, naturally, it’s already become a different story, but if we step back and look at it, almost nothing has changed. That’s useless. As a result, on one occasion Anno-san handed off this problem to [Yōji] Enokido-san. Basically, he told [Enokido] that he wanted to create a plot in which Mari’s character was more developed. It’s not a brief story; I remember thinking that it was quite a serious situation. For my part, because I thought the fact that Anno-san was writing the scripts himself was an important characteristic of the new films, it [seemed] all the more [serious]. Partially because of that, Enokido-san’s position, it seemed, was that he would absolutely not submit plots or scripts, but [only] ideas. What came out of this was an extremely eccentric, interesting, Enokido-like idea. In short, [Enokido] proactively made use of the fact that Mari could not simply act as a substitute.

In specific terms, how did [Enokido] intend [Mari] to act?

Tsurumaki: To put it simply, it was an idea where Mari completely usurped Asuka’s role. For example, Asuka is unable to pilot Unit-02, because Mari is constantly getting to things before Asuka. Mari even thrusts herself into the middle of the relationship between Shinji and Asuka; [Asuka is] completely thwarted. Even though Asuka makes a great effort to fulfill the role she played at the time of the TV series, because Mari is always there it becomes impossible for her to do it; something like that.

That’s interesting.

Tsurumaki: The reaction of Asuka fans to it would probably be terrifying (laughs). Because, in Enokido’s idea, Asuka, thwarted by Mari, is never able to pilot Unit-02. There were voices on the staff pointing out the size of the risk [involved], but Anno-san somehow understood [the idea], saying, “Well, I’m going to take that idea and put it in the script”. However… [this idea] immediately went back to the drawing board (laughs). For example, when Asuka tries to pilot Unit-02 at the time of the battle with the eighth angel, she is told by Ritsuko, “Mari, the pilot who arrived on short notice from Europe, can pilot Unit-02, so you are on standby”. Asuka is mortified. That was Enokido’s idea, but in Anno-san’s script, he changed it so that the two of them would be piloting Unit-02 together (laughs).

“Ninin-Baori” (laughs)?

Tsurumaki: It’s excusable to just focus on the good things, but [Anno] was trying so hard to please everybody that the story was becoming confusing. Probably Anno-san thought that the story would not change unless he could deeply connect Mari to it, and for this reason he tried to place all the responsibility for changing the story upon Mari. Nevertheless, contrary to his intentions, even though he had tried to introduce Mari, he was not able to change the story.

It’s as though some mysterious, compelling force was operating.

Tsurumaki: But, I somehow understand that everyone experiences this. We don’t change [so easily], even though we swear, “starting tomorrow, I will change!” (laughs) Being unable [to change] despite knowing [you should]; that’s something common to everyone. I think, in due time, Anno-san will reveal the real reason [for its existence] himself, but when Masayuki-san first did the storyboards for the battle with the eighth angel, the scene where the two pilot together was storyboarded, based upon the plot [at that time].

How [did Anno] get them both onto [the Eva]?

Tsurumaki: It’s as though Asuka secretly got on ahead of time (laughs). It wasn’t just there, [though]. Things like that continued to happen almost entirely throughout. So, we were truly in difficulty. [Anno] said there would be changes in “Break”, and in practice more than 90% [of the film] was [comprised of] new scenes, but, even though we had taken the trouble to produce this new material, the story had not changed. Of course the situations, the characters, and the dialogue had changed. However, if we examine the significance of what was done there, we will get something like, “Eh? This happened in episode xx”, or “This scene [could go] in episode xx”.

Hmm… It’s as though you repainted [Eva], but the sense or significance of the TV series rose to the surface from the foundation.

Tsurumaki: So, it was coming to seem like a summary version made with some slightly new material. A while ago, I had been told that the “Evangelion” TV series was quite rigidly fixed; it was, I think, certainly like that. It seemed like, if you change things in one place, things go badly not only there but elsewhere as well; a host of derivative problems arise. If you try to fix it, it’s an enormous task to make the story consistent everywhere.

Even if it goes well, won’t the “spirit” of the original series still end up dwelling there?

Tsurumaki: Yes. This sort of thing continued, and for a while we were truly in difficulties. I think that was the main reason the script couldn’t be fixed, and that as a result [we] spent so much time doing storyboards.

Even though they were deliberated to the point of staging a retreat for the script, there were some things that just couldn’t be “boiled down”, right?

Tsurumaki: Well, I think the Atami Retreat, which Enokido-san participated in, was extremely worthwhile. An audacious idea for the last scene, which was almost all right [as presented], emerged there. That was the development, which remains now, whereby Shinji rescues Rei. As far as the film’s climax goes, the work to be done after that hardly concerned us. The difficulty was arranging for Mari’s involvement, [which was necessary] in order to bring the story to that point. The most simple solution was—just as in the early stages of the story—to keep Mari’s appearances to a minimum, to leave her with no relationship with Shinji or Asuka, and for [the story] to follow a course similar to the TV series. In the end, this [approach] would go the most smoothly.

A course leading up to episode 19 of the television series.

Tsurumaki: Yes. Strictly speaking, the part corresponding to episode 19 incorporates parts [of the series] from up to episode 23. Rei self-destructs in the TV series; [here] Shinji rescues her, and she is not made to self-destruct. Keeping things the same besides that was the safest way to do it. However, Mari had appeared [in the story], so she somehow had to act; we had to leave a path open for Mari. That was the most stressful [part].

[...] (Part 3 missing)

[Incorporating] change itself into the structure of the film

Setting Mari aside, having Asuka pilot Unit-03 was a major change in “Break”. How was this decision made?

Tsurumaki: Just as with Mari, we wanted Asuka to be significantly involved in the story. Since we decided to make the new films we’ve somehow felt misgivings [about Asuka?]. When we [developed] the plot there were many scenes and dialogues involving Asuka, but we weren’t able to assign her a role in the story. She didn’t decisively impact Shinji, Rei, or the others. To say it plainly, we had the feeling that she was becoming something like a character who only “made noise” at the side. Asuka is a crucial character, so we wanted to involve her more in the story. She’s a popular character, so we hated the idea of her appearing as “side entertainment”.

So how did she become linked with the Unit-03 sequence?

Tsurumaki: Sadamoto-san’s advice was important. There was an initial conversation where he made the point that, “among Kaworu, Touji, and Asuka, you will not be able to sufficiently develop more than two of them, probably only one”. Because he had carefully considered his experiences putting together the manga, I placed great weight on his opinion.

In actuality, the story of Touji and Unit-03 remained in the manga version, right?

Tsurumaki: Yeah. With a manga, in a way, you have a great deal of freedom. For example, you could use an entire volume of the manga just for Episode 18 of the TV series, and it should be okay. I myself really liked Touji’s episode; I think it was good in that it broadened the scope of the series, and so I understand Sadamoto-san closely following the TV version in his manga. However, because a film has to develop a “flow” within a limited amount of time, we wouldn’t have the space to closely develop three characters in “Break”. I could predict that, when we positioned the TV series’ Unit-03 incident as a crucial, climactic episode, we would have no choice but to abandon portraying Asuka [as a major character]. If that happened Asuka’s role in the plot would completely vanish. Moreover, after the Unit-03 incident, even the scenes where she does appear were bound to be reduced. If this is the case, could we simply replace Touji with Asuka? I tried proposing this to Anno-san, including Sadamoto-san’s views on the matter.

It seems that, for the film, a great deal depended on this determination. So this plan was accepted with no objections?

Tsurumaki: No, there was considerable resistance from the staff. I think it’s only natural. I myself was afraid of making such a change. Anno-san, as well, probably wasn’t eager to do it at first. Nevertheless, the decision about the Unit-03 incident had to be made at an early stage.

I think the result of the plan to have Asuka pilot Unit-03 was a point where the new film impacts [the audience] with an impression of its character. I wondered if it was like a symbolic proclamation: “We are making something different”.

Tsurumaki: When we began the new films, I wondered if we could actually create a film about the condition of “remaking” a work. Something like [what happened with] Apocalypse Now. Filming in a jungle far from their home country, [hearing] a language they didn’t understand, [following] a schedule with no end in sight, lacking sufficient funding; the very circumstances of a film crew making a movie about Vietnam strongly “synchronized” not only with the mental state of the soldiers who fought in Vietnam but with an America unable to withdraw from a war that had become a “quagmire”.

So, I wondered if it was possible to develop something like “a film about the act itself of remaking the same thing over again”. It seems like … changes in the story would be stressful for the creators, to begin with, but also stressful for the characters in the film and for the viewing audience. I wondered if it was possible to make a film that took all of this into account.

This “metafictional” approach is really interesting. It’s like a kind of “stress contest” between the creators and the viewers.

Tsurumaki: So, when I asked Anno-san “How would this be?” he immediately replied “No. That’s useless”. (laughs) It’s certainly a different direction than the “easy-to-understand entertainment” which we initially aimed at with the new films. So, at that time I just gave it up. Nevertheless, during the course of its creation “Break” certainly became like this…

I felt like the various changes within the story came off as things that you had aimed at from the beginning. No doubt about it.

Tsurumaki: Despite people saying “Kaeru Kaeru”, [“change, change”] in reality things stay the same as before and cannot be changed. It’s the same with the viewers, who, on the one hand, come to the theater anticipating changes, and, on the other hand, are prepared in advance to complain if the direction of the changes doesn’t suit them. This sender/​receiver relationship exists naturally. Obviously, it’s something that’s both “inside” and “outside” the film, between the “story” and the “real world”. [When we speak of] “film” [the word] also includes this [situation]. As I wanted to aim for this at the start, I’m satisfied with the current state of the film, which I think is approaching that once- rejected and abandoned “metafictionality”.

It’s a situation where there is a structural entanglement between something like reality and the creative situation or between something like the “film” and the “fan”.

Tsurumaki: It’s certainly “Eva-esque”.

This is an amazingly thought-provoking account, in that it sheds light on what it means to transform Eva into “Break” / to “Break” Eva.

Tsurumaki: I don’t know to what extent the audience will be really interested in it! (laughs)

No, no, it’s extraordinarily interesting. I think it’s a valuable account.

Tsurumaki: Certainly this should be an interesting conversation for the “heavy” Eva fan. I myself also really like it. “To repeat”, “to remake”, “to want to change”, “to have to change;” these things themselves become the themes of the story, and produce a new structure. There is the TV series, and there are the new movies; a reiteration. “To do it one more time”: within this development, one says one wants to change but does not. It’s as though one wants to change and yet one doesn’t want to change… this incredible structure developed, and I really like it.

The magic that was hidden in Episode 19

Even though it’s interesting, the actual work must naturally have been difficult.

Tsurumaki: There are different considerations if you are part of the creative process! (laughs) If you have control of this “meta” way of creating [something], then things aren’t too bad. At first I tried to exercise this control, but when I talked to Anno [I learned that] it was “useless”, so I thought, well, there’s nothing I can do. However, in this state where I had no control, [the film] became [“metafictional”] in the end. That’s what happened.

So it took care of itself?

Tsurumaki: Yes. It’s exactly a state where it’s been left to take care of itself. (laughs) I think that’s probably terrible, right?

I’m sorry, but I think “deep” fans of Eva will absolutely say “that’s okay!” (laughs) Their fear and mistrust of a “destination unknown” melts away, owing to their “pre-established harmony” [with the creators/​franchise]. Moreover, if we watch the completed film, there’s no sign of things that were produced by “giving up control”. It’s beyond the imagination of anyone to sense what you were able to bring about and what formed [accidentally]. Moreover, it seems as though everything was calculated from the beginning… I think that, certainly, is “Eva-esque”, and an extremely interesting phenomenon.

Tsurumaki: That’s true, isn’t it? Some time ago there was a topic of conversation dealing with the story structure of the TV series as being extremely fixed, extremely strong, and at the time I thought this way as well. I thought, “Anno-san, he’s amazing!” Amazing to come up with this structure. It’s a structure where turning over one piece brings the entire series of connections to life. I thought it was amazing. However, when I started to work on “Break”, and we looked at and analyzed the climactic scene, corresponding to episode 19 of the series, over and over again, then I came to realize that this was not entirely true. Everybody really loves episode 19, and it’s said to be extremely well made, right?

Yeah. In that [episode] we get a tightly compressed reiteration of the TV series up to that point; it’s a technique that shows us a condensed version of the story of Shinji’s growth, right?

Tsurumaki: Nevertheless, if you analyze the incredible “magic” happening there you will really understand. I don’t mean to be impolite, but, to put it simply, everybody is being deceived. Even we, the staff, were deceived.

What on earth do you mean by that?

Tsurumaki: The most important point is that Shinji says there that he won’t pilot the Eva again. When Shinji decides to leave Tokyo-3, one moment he is separating from Misato at Hakone-Yumoto station, and before we know it he is in an underground shelter in the Geofront. When the Angel attacks he is standing on a hill overlooking Tokyo-3 -which lies on the other side of a mountain from Hakone- Yumoto—saying to himself “I won’t pilot”. But in the next scene he is in the underground shelter. While he is saying “I won’t pilot” his body is gradually coming closer and closer to Unit-01. I didn’t really realize this at the time. This also has to do with Masayuki’s transcendental editing technique and the fact that “BANK” is frequently used.

なん だ か見覚えのシーンをパッパッと短くつないで 入れ子にしてあるから、よけい印象が強くなって見えるんですようね。

Tsurumaki: In addition, there is also the lack of information characteristic of TV Anime. For example, there is the sky in the background behind the character, but no information is given outside of that; is he on the top of a mountain? Is he inside the city? We don’t really know. We are gradually disoriented by means of an accumulation of indeterminacies.

Certainly, owing to the “magic” of the television image, we have the impression that, even though Shinji is going [somewhere] with all his might, we don’t know where he is.

Tsurumaki: But if we observe carefully, we feel confused. Even at that [earlier] time I realized that much. My interpretation was that, even though Shinji was saying he wouldn’t pilot, he also understood that he had to pilot. As for his saying “I won’t pilot”, I believed that if he wasn’t saying it he would certainly pilot. As a result, although he was saying “I won’t pilot, I won’t pilot”, his body was going towards the center of the battle. Even though he came as far the Geofront, where the battle was raging, he was still saying “I won’t pilot, I won’t pilot”. Then Unit-02’s head falls down, and Unit-00 is damaged, and so on; and when [Shinji] goes outside Kaji is there, and they have a famous conversation. Finally, Shinji gives up and pilots, deciding that, “as I thought, I have to pilot… I knew it, but it was just as I expected”. That sort of development was how I interpreted things.

That’s also my interpretation, and, I think, the interpretation of countless viewers…

Tsurumaki: [There must be a] “however”, right? When I was doing the storyboards for “Break”, and went to confirm with Anno-san that portraying Shinji like this was good, I was emphatically told, “What are you talking about, Makki? This is completely wrong!” What a shock I received! (laughs) Anno-san continues, “Shinji really doesn’t want to pilot, and that’s what he says”. From my point of view Shinji’s declaration “I won’t pilot” was half a hate campaign against his father, a child and “da-da” type situation. It was the same as a child who had quarreled with his father saying “If that’s the case, I won’t study!” Emotionally, Shinji doesn’t want to pilot, but he understands that he has to. To that extent I had thought he was a “grown-up” character.

However, when I seriously thought over what Anno-san had said, I understood that Anno-san’s Shinji is not like that. I understood that he was a character who, if he feels he doesn’t want to pilot, absolutely will not pilot. Shinji is the exact opposite of what the conventional impression of him is. He is not cowardly and indecisive; he is obstinate and doesn’t pay any mind to other people.

In short, a character who will not pilot, no matter what?

Tsurumaki: Exactly right. According to Anno-san, “He pilots because he wants to pilot, and as long as he doesn’t want to pilot he won’t pilot”. But I remained unsatisfied. “That would be acceptable if this were a trivial argument over something like studying. However, if he doesn’t pilot Eva, humanity will be destroyed, Misato will be in great difficulties, Rei Ayanami will have to undertake a suicide attack, and so on; even if he knows this, will he still not pilot Eva?” When I again tried to ask Anno-san this, he replied, “Because Shinji is extremely angry there, his heart is closed and he doesn’t notice those things”.

When I was told that, I understood the irrational speech and conduct that could be sometimes seen in Anno-san! (laughs) In short, he’s someone who, once he starts to say he doesn’t like something, absolutely will not budge. From my perspective, at such times Anno-san is obstinate to what feels like an abnormal extent.

I am the opposite. I truthfully dislike even doing this interview for the program. However, since Anno-san wouldn’t do it, it seemed like someone had to… I don’t care one way or the other about the interview. (laughs) But Anno-san, he’s someone who sometimes displays an irrational obstinacy reminiscent of Shinji in Episode 19.

All of this is just a guess, but Anno-san has never in his life had the experience “I didn’t want to do it, but I did it”. If he did something, it was only because he had wanted to do it. For myself, there were many things I did because I wanted to do them, but just about as many things I didn’t want to do, but did because I had no choice.

It’s generally the same for every working adult, right?

Tsurumaki: However, was Shinji really portrayed in episode 19 the way Anno-san said he was? No matter what, the question was there, but when I ask Masayuki-san, who was responsible for directing that episode, for confirmation, for one reason or another he doesn’t give me a clear answer. As a result I wonder if he is changing the depiction of Shinji’s character behind Anno-san’s back.

Isn’t that an even more shocking discovery?

Tsurumaki: A reason that can explain why Shinji returned to the Geofront… In short, in his heart Shinji believes that he has to pilot Eva so he goes of his own volition. Even if the truth is that Anno-san’s script arrives at a different explanation, [the other] is easily inserted. If such things as Shinji’s monologue alongside the voices of the evacuees, the stream of announcements on the public address system, and so on, are present, Anno-san will believe that “this is certainly following my script”. However, Masayuki-san treats that skillfully, and then inserts an ambiguous depiction which could be taken a different way. As far as this is the case, Masayuki-san’s directoral plan should have been fundamentally the same as my interpretation.

I’ve got it. It’s that ambiguity that is the main reason viewers have such sympathetic feelings for episode 19.

Tsurumaki: Right. To the extent they hold those feelings, Shinji is not obstinate. The impressions [produced by the episode] can be interpreted this way. I think Masayuki-san’s words were something like, “It’s this because that stupid Anno said so, but…” (laughs) I wondered if [Masayuki-san], like myself, wanted to avoid a definite conflict or rejection, and so, with a skillful deception, had things both ways. [...] However, Masayuki-san’s unique editing technique and film-like montages were accompanied by the lack of information peculiar to television; [the result is] something established through a perfect balance.

This is a very interesting explanation. As a result, what the viewers finally see is left to the imagination of the viewers. So the viewers will reach the conclusion “I was able to see what I wanted to see”.

Tsurumaki: Right. Precisely because the information provided in TV anime is slight, it’s left up to the viewers. The technique depends upon this precondition. However, if we attempted to do the same thing with film-quality images, then that would absolutely lead to problems. I believed we couldn’t achieve the same thing [in the film] using the technique from episode 19.

(to be continued)

Hideaki Anno - Director in Chief (2010/08/09)

Translation by: Number-kun
Compilation by: Gwern

The response to the “Break” [Evangelion 2.0] preview as the impetus for major changes

I’d like to ask you about “Break”. Preproduction for “Break”—including work on the scenario and the settei—was underway at the same time as “Prelude” [Evangelion 1.0]. That was because, I think, they were consecutive works, planned to be successively released. That plan was significantly changed. I’d like to hear how it came about that you revised the script that existed at the time of the “Prelude” premiere. Things changed just following the premiere, right?

Hideaki Anno: Right. It was from that point that the big changes were made.

If I was to make a conjecture on the basis of the various [CRC] interviews, during work on “Prelude” there was a version of the script that did not yet include the most interesting parts. [Shinji] Higuchi-san said that he had drawn storyboards based upon the script at that time.

Anno: Certainly, a script had been written by March 2007, at the same time “Prelude” was being made. The eleventh draft became the final version of that script. Work on the storyboards was also taking place during “Prelude” from that earlier version of the script. From the point of view of quantity, I think the first drafts were already completed for about two-thirds of the whole. That’s because we had planned to begin work on “Break” without any pause or interruption once “Prelude” was finished. However, I couldn’t live up to it. After the [“Prelude”] premiere, I decided to look again at the content of the second part, starting from zero.

Was the highly favorable reaction of the viewers at the premiere a significant reason for that?

Anno: Yeah. It started after I heard the reaction to the preview at the Milano theater in Shinjuku. [“Prelude”] was a theatrical film, but because I wanted the format to be the same as the TV series, I intended from the beginning to insert a “preview” [at the end]. The same music would be used. I thought, as “service”, it would please the viewers of the original work. However, I didn’t expect that big a reaction. Originally, I thought, because there would be a “gap” until the second part, attaching a preview at the end would increase the viewers’ anticipation. I also expected that, among the viewers, there would be some for whom this [preview] would be the “peak” of the film. However, this was more than I imagined. In particular, the reaction to the new character was bigger than I expected.

At the theater I went to, [the crowd] was extremely charged up, even at the very end.

Anno: Right. I didn’t expect that much. The staff who went to see [the film] were also deeply impressed and excited [by the reaction].

In the first version of the plot I thought of, the new character would have a very active role from the third part on. I didn’t think the character would do any more than make an appearance in the second part. Although, because she appeared in the original series, she doesn’t seem much like a new character, Asuka was also a highly important “new character” who, in the Rebuild films, would appear from the second part on. Because I would surely place emphasis upon [?] Asuka, I didn’t intend to seriously deal with a new character in the second part. However, there was so much anticipation for the new character among the viewers that I felt I had to respond to that. So, I decided to increase the number of the new character’s appearances. It was at that point that I first began the work of reviewing the second part. The strength of the response to the preview, the intensity of the viewers, significantly changed the way I looked at “Break”. It moved my heart, and the “rudder” of the work began to significantly shift.

How did the actual work [process] change?

Anno: There was the content of the film, the script, but I began by looking at how I was making the films.

During the making of the first part, “Prelude”, I feel like I was half-fixated [?] on reenacting the TV series. Because we had lacked money, workers, and time, I wanted to recreate the old material. I was so fixated on the idea of reenaction that I was making [the film] without deviating from the timing of the [original] timesheets. Half-way through I realized that it was okay to alter the timesheets. Although it might seem strange, despite [the film being] a kind of “new, digital satsuei work”, I was overly hung up on the initial phrase, “film remake”. During the initial screening of “Prelude”, I felt that, if I had gone this far in updating all the images, I could have deviated a bit more from the [original] storyboards. [?] The original conception was that the films would start out from the same place as the TV series, but I felt I was too fixated upon that place. So, from the second part onwards, I intended to abandon those elements “fixated” on the original series and proceed with the feeling that I was making an entirely new work. I would set out from “ground zero”.

To begin with, I naturally thought I would correct my mistake by altering the script. The scripted plot, at that stage, was still developing in accordance with the original work, and with a view to utilizing the genga of the original work, so from that point I decided to make changes. I returned the plot and the outline to their initial state and reexamined things from the beginning. In order to examine the drama and the course of the plot as a whole, and to establish the new character, Mari [Makinami], I held a retreat. This mainly involved scrutinizing the outline with the directoral camp and (Yoji) Enokido-san, who was participating once again [owing to Tsurumaki’s suggestion ?]. It was only men; we shut ourselves up in Atami for three days and two nights. At that point new ideas and drastic amendments to the plot were proposed—for example, Masayuki’s suggestion that, following the main title, the film begin with the graveyard visit, or Enokido-san’s suggestion of a Shinji-Mari “Love Love” pairing. From that point, a full-scale revision had seriously begun.

No changes were made to Mari’s appearance in the pre-title sequence itself?

Anno: Right. Mari and the provisional Unit-05, the third angel, and so on—the idea of beginning with this character and this mecha that we’ve never seen before, and this new setting, “Bethany Base”, outside of Hakone—this remained unchanged from the first draft outline. The plan of the battle, Mari’s dialogue and personality—these sort of things changed, but the course itself, the general course of the story of the pre-title sequence, didn’t change. I wanted it to impact both viewers of the original series and people for whom “Break” was their first time seeing Eva. I thought that, although people familiar with the original series would be overwhelmed with unfamiliar things [?], because of Kaji, there was a common denominator which could enable them to feel secure for the moment. Starting with English and Russian dialogue with Japanese subtitles was the same. First of all, I wanted to begin the film with the impression of things being different than they have been up until now.

The provisional Unit-05 was not a familiar EVA with a “bipedal” form.

Anno: Right. I wanted to introduce an unfamiliar Eva with a form you could immediately identify as different. I also wanted, for the pre-title sequence, to try to create fully CG images, including the angel and the Eva. A fully CG battle was itself, within Eva, an unfamiliar image, [so I wanted to use it] for the pre-title sequence. I also had an “experimental” intention. To what extent was a fully CG Eva battle possible? I thought it would be good if we could test technical things out or experiment with how things are set up within the work. The form and details were complex, with the four legs, and so on. It would have taken a lot of time and effort to draw by hand; the design is considerably difficult to draw. It was a battle scene where the movement and so on couldn’t be efficiently drawn if we didn’t use CG, so I wanted to take this opportunity to experiment with it. We had also put together a complex design for the angel intended to be rendered in CG. The background animation was also something where its creation was directed with an eye to CG. [?] I figured, in addition, that the pre-title sequence was the beginning of the work, so there was plenty of time left on the production schedule. Even if there were various difficulties with a full CG battle scene, I figured that we had plenty of time to investigate the difficulties using animatics and so on.

However, in the end, for various reasons, we ran out of time. There were cuts that worked well in the animatics, but, to sum things up, they didn’t really go as planned, which was a bit unfortunate. [?] Among other things, we added in hand-drawn effects, and introduced CG explosions. Including the satsuei treatment, we continued experimenting with various things until we almost ran out of time. As an on-screen image, I think the final result paid off. However…

CG was used in “Prelude”, but here there is more action, and things have much progressed.

Anno: Yeah. With people who can draw the Eva genga really well being limited, if I wanted to maintain or increase the quality—I thought from the outset that I wanted to replace, as much as possible, elements like walking and running movements, which would originally just get repeated [?], with CG. The angels, as well—since I conceived of the plot I intended to make all the angels mostly CG, excluding Unit-03 (the ninth angel) and the final tenth angel—the opposite of the pattern from “Prelude”. There, we began with hand-drawn angels, and ended with full CG. I considered the total amount of work to be done and its allocation between hand-drawn and CG parts, and the script reflects that consideration. [?] I always take production-related risks into account, so the number or amount of battle scenes are decided in advance, before starting the script or the script outline.

A script bogged down in revisions upon revisions

It seems that during the scriptwriting process an enormous number of serious revisions accumulated.

Anno: Yeah. Counting both large and small revisions, there was a total of more than forty revisions of the script. The first major changes took place from November 2006 to the start of December, while we were still working on “Prelude”.

What sort of changes were those?

Anno: Asuka became the test pilot for Unit-03. Up until that point Touji had been the test subject, just as in the TV series. The only difference was that Shinji knew that in advance. Up to that point, the script as a whole was filled with various “nuances” reminding of, or “tastes” of, the original series: an “adult” depiction of Kaji and Misato, Asuka’s discord with her mother, Asuka’s idolization of Kaji and her immediate friendship with Hikari, and so on. In addition, the climax around this time was a kind of synthesis between episodes 19 and 23 of the TV series, where Shinji would be persuaded by Kaji to launch in Unit-01 and Rei would sacrifice herself in order to save Shinji; faced with this grief, Shinji’s heart would be unable to bear it, and Unit-01 would go out of control. The drafts up to number five were written according to this plan. [The first draft storyboards up to part C that were requested before the premiere of “Prelude” were generally based upon the drafts of the script written up to this point]

What was the impetus for the change?

Anno: The big thing was the comments made by Makki (Director Kazuya Tsurumaki’s pet name). “For this, we can’t make films just by summarizing the TV series”. He also said, “I want Asuka to have a ‘film-like’ role. At this rate, she will just be making an appearance—she provides no drama vis-a-vis Shinji, the protagonist; she is not involved”. Furthermore, “As a story, it’s not different enough from the original series”—all these in succession. He further said, “Isn’t a change as drastic as having Asuka pilot Unit-03 necessary?” I think, because this was a major, fundamental change, opinion was divided when I researched the views of a number of staff members. (Ikki) Todoroki, in particular, was tremendously opposed. After thinking about it, I ultimately adopted Tsurumaki’s proposal and decided to change the pilot of Unit-03. That was the sixth draft of the script. It was finished following the 2007 new year, on January 8th. In this draft, the test pilot was simply changed from Touji to Asuka, [and the reason for it—Mari, the new pilot, is reassigned to NERV HQ from Europe, and Asuka will be taken off of Unit-02, so she volunteers—was really just improvised] The change of test pilot was forced into the draft, with the characters and situations left unaltered.

So, naturally, I received, and agreed with, a proposal memo sent out by Tsurumaki, which said, “We have to provide Shinji, as well as the audience, with the same degree of shock and sense of loss as when Touji was lost in the TV series. For that reason, by boldly portraying Asuka as a ‘good character’⁠, I hope to greatly convey that sense of loss”. Because of that, I wanted to have Asuka pilot Unit-03 in order to do something for Rei, and Shinji, and others—something for other people. As Tsurumaki put it, it’s like a “death flag” is raised. As a result, Asuka piloting Unit-03 ended up being made into the “peak” of her drama. I changed various parts of the script in accordance with this. For example, Asuka’s impetus for piloting Unit-03 would connect with the story of Rei [learning to cook and?] preparing a dinner party for Shinji and Gendou. It seemed like these things, as well as Asuka’s character, dialogue, and so on, had gradually become solidified.

Aside from Mari, the course of the story and drama up to Part C was roughly the same in the eleventh draft of the script, dated March 11, 2007, as it would be in the film. However, Part D still followed the course of the original series. Up to the eleventh draft, the plan for what would be done with Unit-02 during the battle with the tenth angel—for example—had continually changed. I went from a proposal from Tsurumaki which suggested that, “as it puts pressure on production, it would be better if Unit-02 did not appear [during that scene]”, to “Mari will pilot Unit-02”, and at one point I even settled on a plan where “an unconscious Asuka will pilot Unit-02 using the dummy system”. The eleventh draft [?] was written along those lines. The development following the defeat of Unit-02 and Unit-00 just followed the course of the original series, where Rei, who is consumed by or united with the angel, tries to take in Unit-01, and, when she notices what she is doing, self-destructs. At this point, I temporarily stopped working on the script. That was because work on “Prelude” was facing a great crisis, and I had to focus upon it. If I’m not mistaken, at one point I requested image boards and storyboards of the last battle based upon this draft from Shin-chan Shinji Higuchi⁠.

When was the suspended work on the “Break” script resumed?

Anno: I was in a daze for a little while following the first “Prelude” screening. From there I once again uncovered various issues, large and small. Gathering [the various opinions expressed at] the script retreat held at the end of October, as well as my own thoughts, I revised a large portion of the script, producing what you might call a new version. This twelfth draft was completed on December 6, 2007. At this point, there was a development where, during the fight with the falling angel, Mari and Asuka are present in the [Unit-02] entry plug together. Then I wrote the entire script anew, rewriting it with the feeling that it was an all-new work. Because of that, the parts of the script predicated upon the appropriation of materials [genga etc.] from the original series were largely eliminated.

In addition, one more new, significant change emerged at this time. Abandoning the scenario where Rei self-destructs in the last scene to save Shinji, I decided on a course where Shinji saves Rei. This was due to (Toshimichi) Otsuki’s opinion as a producer that, because [the story of the second part would also lead to the third part], he wanted it to end hopefully, with a positive feeling. Regarding this, opinions among the staff were again divided. This time, it was Tsurumaki who particularly opposed, or resisted, this change. Makki said that he wanted to prominently feature Rei III, who was barely present in the old work, in the third part [of Rebuild], developing her in depth. It seemed like this had been one of his motivations for participating [in Rebuild]. However, in the end I decided on the scenario where Rei is saved, and he assented, saying “If it’s all right with Anno-san…” I think I decided that way because, with “Break”, I was searching for something called “change”. As well, I thought this would lead to the next change. At this point I could generally see what the roles of Asuka, Rei, and Misato would be. The problem was Mari.

As a foreign element, Mari struggles to enter

I heard that you had a very hard time with the creation of Mari’s character.

Anno: Right. It was extremely difficult. Ever since I started the new films I had decided on this “one trick” where I would increase the count of female pilots by one with a new character. I felt that there was a danger where, if I didn’t do this, I would end up repeating the same story, and be unable to significantly change things. I felt that, even if I had to force it, if I didn’t throw a new Eva pilot as an extreme, foreign element into the films, then Eva would not significantly change. At the start, I feel like I forcibly thrust her into the story. The early drafts were so erratic that, being unrelated to the story, Mari’s very existence seemed to have no basis. Outside of the pre-title sequence, she practically did not appear at all. But because at the time I expected that, if she made more than a cameo appearance in the second part [2.0], I would be unable to develop Asuka or Shinji or someone else, I left things as they were. I figured that I should develop the new character from the third part [3.0] on, where the story would completely change. It would be easy to insert her there. Well, that was a thoroughly naive outlook.

At any rate, when it came down to actually increasing her appearances, I couldn’t fit her in at all. It just wasn’t possible for her to appear. The original Evangelion had been more rigidly made than I had thought. There was no real margin for new elements to enter into the story or into the drama. I created the original series by selecting the best ways of doing things that I could think of at the time, so if I damaged one element, other elements would become damaged as part of a chain reaction. At the end, I started to get less and less interested in doing it.

This was difficult to deal with. The work was more than ten years old, but still, I had created it myself, so it wasn’t easy for me to damage. This isn’t self-congratulation—I was forced to again recognize that the “flow” was very well constructed. The original Evangelion was entirely created from my unembellished feelings and my improvised writings, so it was not completed according to a theory. As a result, I thought I would get other people, outsiders, to help me destroy it—Tsurumaki in particular. In addition, there’s parts of myself that are different compared to that time. So, I tried to change [Eva]. It was a battle with my so-called past self, my self eleven years ago. It took a great deal of inner strength.

It’s a process where you might end up repudiating your inner core, so I can imagine the pain involved. Practically speaking, how did you attempt to insert Mari into the story?

Anno: To begin with, I left [certain things] to others. I tried to propose as little of her image myself as I could. I gave O-sada [Yoshiyuki Sadamoto] and Makki a rough impression of her settei: her outward design was to be that of a English private school girl, a bit “O-nee-san”-like, maybe with a love of animals as well, and so on. After that I left them to work things out; I felt like I would just check what they completed. I think, since it had been decided that [the character] would appear, the teamwork on the character design started at very early stage. I think Sadamoto struggled greatly [with Mari] for a while as well, but arrived in the direction of “a meganekko, with long, straight hair”, and so forth, early on. After all, the rough design was ready in time for the preview at the end of “Prelude”. He struggled with it again when the time came to gather and revise everything to produce Mari’s settei images, but I think the result was very good, as you would expect from O-sada.

However, there were some difficulties as her personality wasn’t coming together. Things started with a process of elimination. There was already a “normal” character in Hikari, and “eccentric” characters in Rei and Asuka. First off, [we] tried to take those personality characteristics and aspects of appearance that had not been yet been used in Eva as a starting point. She was made up of simple elements; for example, “she wears glasses as an accessory, which we had avoided using up to this point because they were hard to animate”. Yet if this were all, she wouldn’t be a new character, only a “not” character—whatever Rei, Asuka, etc., weren’t. The positions of the characters in the original work were also extremely rigidly constructed. If Mari were to be inserted carelessly the drama, the story, and the balance of the whole would completely fall apart. Although I was aiming for change, if it was only different from the original work, in the end it would be nothing but a “counter” to what had come before…

That’s surely the case, as being a “counter” means that it becomes a premise in which the same sense of values is incorporated.

Anno: Right. Well, it’s difficult. By the draft of February 15 2008, draft 13a, I had the idea that “Mari’s appearances following the pre-title sequence will come sooner, be more numerous, and be more impressive. To that end, Mari will take charge of the battlefield during the fight against the falling angel, riding with Asuka, who hates the situation, in the entry plug [of Unit-02]”. Then Mari covers [庇う] for Asuka, but a wound she received during the pre-title sequence grows worse, so she is hospitalized until she reappears again in the last scene. That was the plan, but it didn’t work out. It seemed artificial, and didn’t fit. On the other hand, if Mari continued to appear, scenes which related Mari to Shinji would become necessary, and because of that Asuka’s presence would become too far reduced for the scene where she pilots Unit-03 to be allowed to remain. On top of that, scenes between Mari and Shinji where I felt “this is right” were not coming easily to me. Furthermore, as the screenplay had nobody knowing Mari, the conversations did not go anywhere. So, I made her a senior schoolmate of Asuka’s from Europe, but then this weakened the sense of Asuka’s isolation, so that was again no good. At that point the balance [of Eva] was coming apart like a tower made of toy blocks. With all those various drawbacks and time running out, we totally cut the appearance of Mari in Part B when we worked on the storyboards instead of doing it in scripts. In the storyboards, I think there is about one cut remained that had the frame with Mari behind Asuka on Unit-02 and with a big X-mark inside. The saku-uchi [team discussion and working on the drawing] of that scene was done at an early stage, so there was no more time to do re-think for it. But with this revised script the parts except Mari’s, up to Part C, became relatively complete.

Well, still there were also many script revisions piling up concerning small changes in dialogues or switching the scene order in places like the section with Touji/​Kensuke and Shinji or the SEELE scene. Things like the story of Asuka’s relationship with her mother, or the somewhat “adult” episodes between Misato and Kaji, were revised or eliminated at the stage when the storyboards were being brought together. With the “flow” being brought together, we became unable to incorporate parts that didn’t involve Shinji. I had also wanted to incorporate as much as I could an “adult vividness”, but this time I decided to take the risk of leaving it out. I decided to make it an easily comprehensible view of world building that put junior high students at the center.

After that much arranging and getting down to what was essential, Mari and Part D still remained [to be dealt with], right?

Anno: Right. The fourteenth draft, dated January 14th 2008, was separate from what came before, beginning from Part D. At that point it was fixed that Mari would pilot Unit-02. However, Misato and Shinji’s separation, what the course of action would be after the berserk of Unit-02 that Mari piloted, what happens after the angel consumes Unit-00—these sorts of things were a long way from being settled. Mari’s appearances, as well—in draft 13b, dated May 23rd, there was a scene where she had tea with Shinji on the roof of the school. For Part D, I focused on continually producing revisions from May to about September. There are 13 drafts just in the data that still remains. Really, it was like all sorts of ideas were coming up and then disappearing.

The first story plan was dated August 3rd, 2006, so the script went through about two years and five months of repeated twists and turns in total. Anyway, I think I devised new ideas every day in order to make things interesting.

"[We] persisted in changing Mari’s appearances up until the very last minute" -ANNO, Hideaki

It seems like the changes to the script continued even though the date of the film’s release was getting close.

Anno: Yeah. Tsurumaki, who was in charge of the storyboards plus the director of Part D, persevered until the very end. Especially in regards to Mari. Draft 15.2, dated September 25, was at one point sent to be storyboarded, but when it came time for Tsurumaki to do it, there were things in the script that, no matter what, he was not convinced about. [With these points] unsettled, a memo emerged from him concerning them. He said that if these [problems] were not resolved, he couldn’t draw the storyboards. So, during the studio’s new year’s holiday, we sequestered ourselves at my house and at a hotel in Hakone, and we did nothing but think of ideas in order to clear up the difficulties. We were delighted when we came up with them. The script put together as the solution to these difficulties, draft 16.2, turned out to be the final draft. This was the part stretching from the conversation in the bomb shelter between Shinji and Mari in the heavily damaged Unit-02 to the Kaworu epilogue. That was January 18th, 2009, so it was a situation where we were almost out of time on the production schedule, and didn’t know if the images [for the film] would be finished in time for the premiere. We storyboarded after that, so we persisted in revising things to the point of real danger.

You had half a year until the premiere. It would seem that, even if you had started the afureko [voice recording] after the new year, a portion of the scenes would still not have been in a condition suitable for recording. That includes the parts involving Mari and Shinji, right?

Anno: Mari and Shinji’s encounter was finally storyboarded on February 28th, 2009. At the stage when Makki storyboarded the script [the scene] was in a revised form with additional ideas. Tsurumaki was determined to get Mari to arrive from the sky. I feel he just kept at it until an idea emerged that cleared [the way for] that.

But really, Mari’s encounter with Shinji, the scene where she re-emerges, was created by repeated trial and error; I forget how many times I rewrote it. That scene, as well, was initially intended to be placed after Unit-02 was sealed away, but when we watched the rushes through, it didn’t flow properly. In editing, we tried inserting it at various points, and in the end it was decided that the scene would be advanced to an earlier point in Part B. The connection where [Shinji’s] S-Dat falls on the roof and begins acting up was really a chance result.

In addition, there were scenes that just featured Mari.

Anno: Concerning Mari, at the very last minute, during editing, the opinion was expressed—maybe by O-Sada—that Mari does not appear in enough scenes, that we forget her along the way. Well, I think he felt this way because, as a result of moving the roof scene to a position earlier than was originally planned, there was a gap until her appearance in Part D. So, we decided to think of additional scenes in the way of content we could produce from that point on. Because afureko was already complete, we thought of various [possibilities] without [using] dialogue, making use of different takes from other [unused] cuts; digging up rough layouts, inserting them in editing, and taking a look at them; and so on. We declared [options] to be useless a number of times, and in the end we decided on inserting a scene that used genga from the 2.0 preview trailer after [a shot of] Touji. Oh my, concerning Mari we really were at a loss and struggled till the very very end. I think for this kind of situation [it would be great] if I had the ability to suddenly hit upon something. I wish I had the power to quickly come up with ideas that could clear the challenges.

In what way do you think Mari’s character was established in the film as a result of those difficulties?

Anno: I think she became a good character who for all her short appearance was impressive. This was again due to Tsurumaki’s persistence. In any case, we depicted her with great care in order to leave an impression. I wanted Mari to be an outsider within myself as well as an alien presence in the world of Eva. Because of that, I entrusted a significant potion [of the work concerning her] to Makki. If I had taken too much initiative, there was a risk that she might become [just like] the already existing characters. I think the result was very good, and I’m pleased with it, because the character contains something of the feeling of an alien presence. The image of her voice was also not decided by me, and the suggestion of (Maaya) Sakamoto-san, if I recall correctly, was, in addition, made by O-Sada. I guess Makki also approved [of that suggestion] at the time. I think I said something then, but at the end I said something like “I think it’s fine”.

That was at the time of a drinking party at the studio. Otsuki-san, who had grown impatient with the fact that, despite being close to the afureko period, the casting was still undecided without me having made any suggestions, was asking staff members then and there which seiyuu would be good for the new character, and Sakamoto-san’s name was brought up. The response of the surrounding staff members was favorable. So, Otsuki-san said, “Anno-san, Sakamoto-san is fine; we’ll choose her. Tomorrow, we’ll talk at the office”. “Yeah, that’s fine”, I said. [So far] I had only said hello to her in some events, but I thought that [the decision] was something good. She also performed well in Top 2 (Aim For The Top 2!), and as it was a recommendation from O-Sada and Makki, I thought there would be no problems. Well, later when I went to drink with various people, I was told by Minami [Masahiko] of Bones⁠, “Anno took our Maaya without asking us blah blah” (laugh)

What was the result like, [using] Maaya-san?

Anno: Sakamoto-san was extremely good. She performed as part of a regular team that had already been formed more than ten years ago without hesitation. Well, she was good. When I heard her first test I was convinced that it would work. Her song was excellent as well.

Was it your idea that she sing that, the “365-step march”?

Anno: That was me. It was a song from the Showa period I heard when I was a child. I had her sing it as I wanted to bring out a feeling of ease despite it being her first campaign. In addition, wanting to bring out a ‘Showa-era old man’ feel from her character, I also put in actions like her saying “Dokkoisho” when she stands up, or her unconsciously striking her palm with her fist when she says “Yoshi. So da”. To put it in terms of cooking, that was just about the final seasoning.

Concerning Mari’s naming, I believe [the name] came from Anno-san, but what was the source for it?

Anno: “Illustrious” is the name of an English aircraft carrier. “Makinami” comes, not from the former Imperial Navy, but from the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force’s Ayanami class of destroyers [escort ships]. “Shikinami” is the same. I don’t know whether or not I will bring this out in the main work, but in the new films, I altered the settei of the Eva pilots compared to the original. Because of this, Asuka[’s name] changed as well, from Soryu to Shikinami. As for the name “Mari”, I originally got the name “Mariko” from a character who appeared in my wife’s (Moyoco Anno) manga, but for various reasons it was changed to “Mari”. Well, Bucchan [Yutaka Izubuchi] was also probably pleased with the change (laughs).

The Mari Izubuchi-san enjoys, would that be Brave Raideen’s Mari Sakurano?

Anno: Yeah. Around the end of the original Eva, I was asked by Bucchan if Asuka and Rei[’s names came from] Rei Asuka of Brave Raideen. I was somewhat unfamiliar with Raideen, and unthinkingly responded with the question, “Was there such a character?”, upon which I was emphatically told, “Yes, there was!!” Until I was told that, I hadn’t noticed it. I hadn’t been conscious of it at all. Part-way through [production] I thought about changing [Mari’s name] to Chizuru; if I had done that I think it would have pleased Sho-chan (Shoji Kawamori’s pet name). There was also my wife’s character; and after all happened I finally had a chance to save Bucchan’s face by making a link with Raideen; so after all I went with Mari (laugh)

That’s a truly beautiful friendship.

Anno: It is, isn’t it (laughs). By the way, I prefer the voice of Raideen’s Mari in the first half of the show. Hiromi Oka—she was good, wasn’t she?

The various changes made to the main characters were…

What was the reason for changing Asuka’s name to Shikinami?

Anno: I mentioned this before, but, because I changed the settei relating to the Eva pilots, in order to provide consistency in accordance with that I thought it was best to change the name. I also thought that the change in name of a main character would enable viewers from the previous work to receive the message, “This time is different, a new feeling”. Of course I felt uncomfortable [about it], and there are things that I think are better in the original, but here I feel like I [had to] risk changing things. [?] As I thought that fans from the original work would probably not expect changes to the extent that Asuka’s name would be changed, I wondered if the sense that, “Ah, this is different than before” could be conveyed in a shocking and easy-to-understand way; and I wondered if it might be good as a topic [for conversation] as well.

Indeed, when articles were published in the anime magazines on the changed design of Unit-02, I wondered what was going on, not seeing much of a response, but as soon as Asuka’s name change was announced there was an enormous reaction.

Anno: I would imagine so, as the majority of the fans are focused on the characters rather than the mecha.

I also had a lot of difficulties creating Asuka’s character this time. For the design itself, it was okay to make not much more than minor changes to her plugsuit, but it was hard establishing her personality and personal history for the new films. Well, it was difficult.

It’s not just Mari and Asuka, who participate [in the new films] from “Break” onwards. It was impressive to see Rei display significant changes as well. In particular, there is the fact that she prepares a meal, or the shock of her saying “poka-poka”. Concerning changes made to the regular characters as well, if there were reasons [for this], please inform us of what they were.

Anno: With Rei, for some reason, i just feel “it happened like that” naturally. I never remember why it happened that way. Regarding Rei’s dinner party for Shinji and Gendo, that was originally a plot I had thought of using for episode 4 of the TV series. I remembered it and thought I would include it this time. I have a memory of it being, at that time, something like Shinji’s birthday party. I think I replaced that with the dinner party this time. So, the episode where Rei prepares a meal was already in the first draft of the script. The dialogue where Rei says, “…it’s a secret. I’ll tell you when I get a little better [at it]” was included in the second draft, dated September 9th, 2006. That’s the second time that Rei smiles at Shinji. The Rei of “Break” was established from this point on. Since I hit upon that dialogue, I feel like Rei spontaneously became a character whose emotions leak a little bit into her outward appearance. As far as Rei is concerned, [I am] unconscious. I don’t control anything. With “poka-poka”, as well, I felt like she said it of her own volition before I was even aware of it.

It’s also the same with Shinji. In my mind he is so much a matter of course that, despite him being the protagonist, I often forget that he exists.

As for Misato, in the new films, I made her position as a secondary protagonist as opposed to Shinji clear. Shinji, as well as Rei, as well as Misato, as well as Asuka—as they express their emotions within the limited space of a film, to a certain extent they will act in accordance with given roles. I feel that, within the development of the story, things that I have to do have already been determined. If this was TV, even I went on various tangents I would still have room to recover, so [the characters] would act as I pleased. [???] In a film, I can’t do anything about this.

Nevertheless, I had the feeling that the characters were not simply extensions of the old work, but were new characters as a result. Although they were characters who already existed inside of me for over fourteen years, I feel like they were still changing. Asuka in particular changed from her [original] character settei.

With Asuka’s relationship to Kaji also changed, I felt something new [about her].

Anno: Yeah. I completely cut it from the film. The main reason was that, in a film, there is simply not enough room to depict something like Kaji and Asuka’s story. Even if we had put just a little [of that] in, then she would not have worked as a character, and it would inevitably have been a nuance that only those who knew the original series would understand. So I completely cut that [relationship], and instead decided to have Kaji be close to Mari. That decision was made because of the fact that, among the main characters who had appeared up to this point, there were none who knew Mari, and this was causing me various difficulties in writing. That being the case, I figured that Kaji was the most suitable. He was, like Mari, a character who appears from “Break” onwards. He’s someone who seems to know various secrets, and to have various connections.

I feel like you killed two birds with one stone there, and I had the impression that that also had a big impact to Asuka’s incident with Unit 03.

Anno: Yeah. As [part of the] drama, I wanted to increase Asuka’s degree of isolation even more than in the original work. Because, in the series, the total amount of time available is significant, and I was able to play around with her portrayal, it became “Asuka is a girl who has the man she longs for nearby, and who, on the surface, is skilled at social relations”. In a film like this, because the time available is short, and the characters will be a mess if you cannot pull them together compactly, I simply isolated her from her surroundings, so it’s as though she doesn’t know anyone except for Misato. I thought her subsequent change of heart would also be easier to understand if I had her start with no friends. Because of that, I separated her from Kaji as well. If I hadn’t, the feeling that she had come [to Japan] alone would have become diluted. In accordance with this, I kept her contact with others besides Misato and Shinji slight, and I also kept her conversations with Hikari relatively short in the [film’s] second half.

In any case for movies if one film lasts around 2 hours, I think bigger extents of change are better for conveying [messages] to the audience. I set the Unit-03 incident as the climax for Asuka, and with her emotional peak being the moment right before she disappeared from the stage I wanted to make the gap between this and [the part] after her disappearance as big as possible. Starting form the falling angel battle which she could not deal with by herself, she got liberated little by little, and at last she laid bare her feelings for the first time to other people which was Misato. But, well, it was hard work to think up and bring about various stories in order to liven things up here. [She is] not the protagonist, and then there is also the weighting balance. That said, Part C is almost a story with Asuka as center.

Because Rei’s dinner party became the hinge for the rest of Part C, the main character, Shinji, had a hard time making appearances in the story. Because there are many “waiting” situations rather than a feeling of activity, you just forget about him. Watching the rushes that were made along the way, Shinji’s appearances were too few, or should I say that he didn’t appear for too long a period of time. So, in order that the audience would not forget [him], the scene where he listens to the radio while studying was afterwards added. Despite that, as far as Shinji’s story [in Part C] goes, it is nothing but “looking forward to Rei’s dinner party”, so when Shinji finally appears again, [the added appearance] only emphasizes that.

Devices used and changes made in order to fit [the film] into a limited length [of time]

It seems that the changes in the characters and story were not so much made according to a plan as decided in accordance with various “balances”.

Anno: It’s not just “Break”; it’s like that for all my works. I all of a sudden noticed things when I read the script or the storyboards. I noticed a variety of things, large and small, with surprise when I watched the rushes. So, I hurriedly went to deal with these various things. It was a cycle of repetition. It was really creation by trial and error. Because this caused my staff troubles, I wish I had more of the capacity to settle everything at once in an interesting way. Nevertheless, because “Break” had many characters and there were many sequences that it had to incorporate, I couldn’t see the overall flow and balance if I didn’t actually experience it firsthand.

[The film] had to incorporate an extraordinary number of things. That was naturally a great challenge this time around.

Anno: That’s because, if you put it in terms of the TV series, [the film goes] from episode seven to about episode twenty-three. That’s a length of about eighteen episodes of twenty-two minutes and thirty seconds. When it comes to showing that in a little less than two hours, [you can’t do it] if you don’t cut off a sizable amount.

Was that problem of what to keep and what to remove a major challenge starting from the scenario stage?

Anno: I knew from the start that there was absolutely no margin to develop various scenes, but for some reason, during the initial stages, it was hard for me to recognize that, and I ended up inserting various things. First, I served up a full plate, and had the work afterwards of cutting things down: “I won’t put this in, I won’t put that in”. Especially as concerns the characters, there was even a period where I tried in a number of ways to increase the number of scenes depicting them. Asuka’s scenes also ended up increasing, and when I finally noticed I was faced with the difficulty that she now seemed to be the main character.

There’s an inviolable rule that [another character] can’t be more prominent than Shinji.

Anno: In the end, he is the main character. But, well, from a compositional point of view, if we have Shinji involved in even the side stories, well, [I thought] that could be done without problem.

In the [finished] film as a whole, Shinji clearly stands out as the main character.

Anno: That was the result of an accumulation of a variety of great efforts. As we were talking about, in case it was poorly done, the implication could be the risk that [Shinji] might just appear abruptly only at the end.

Asuka also had a “romantic comedy”-like part: the development where she cooks a meal, and so on.

Anno: With that, for some reason or other I wanted to develop, in an easy-to-understand way, a “junior high school-like” part.

The heavy emphasis on “having a meal” was also striking, but was there something intentional in that?

Anno: I thought that I would attempt to adopt a slight fixation with the idea of “eating”. The influence of my wife is significant. Owing to her, I have changed a little bit. So, I tried increasing the emphasis on meals. Up until the 13th draft of the script I had also inserted a scene where, after the battle with the falling angel, Misato invites Kaji, Ritsuko, and the three operators to go to a Ramen shop, and they sit around Asuka and have a meal together. Kaji tells Shinji, who has both of his arms bandaged, “No Problem. Here, open up–”. Asuka reluctantly feeds ramen to Mari, and, in response to Misato’s words, “Asuka, helping another person probably feels pretty good”, says, “It’s just irritating”. But, in the end I decided to cut it. Because I wanted to focus quietly on Asuka and Shinji’s reactions, and because it’s hard to animate a meal scene, I decided not to do it. It wasn’t in draft 13a of the script.

Because this time the climax was based on episode 19 of the TV series, the image where Eva consumes an angel—well, the result was the opposite [of that], but, I wondered if I should feature the act of “consuming prey”, including that sort of image.

[The motif of] “Food” has been placed throughout the film. Having a meal together with friends, buying and eating ice candies, eating a bento at school, making a meal [for someone] and suddenly stopping… This seems to me to be tied into these “Break”-type changes, where [you feel], “this is a new impression although it’s the same Eva”.

Anno: I think, concerning that, that it probably has less to do with scriptwriting considerations than with what was discussed previously, my personal changes. I finally tried to take an interest in “eating”, and I think that’s something like a manifestation of that⁠. For myself, I wondered what sort of thing “eating” was supposed to be. I myself have many likes and dislikes, and since childhood I was not so attached to the idea of “eating”, so I wanted to try to do some rethink on that area. Because of that, while I connected the depictions to form the story flow, I intentionally center it on the act of “eating”.

The increase in the amount of car scenes is the same; it’s because I started driving. From the time I got my license right after I left high school up until my marriage, I have practically been a “paper driver”. The streets of Tokyo are frightening. I started driving eight years ago, and became interested in cars for the first time. I started to remember the makes and models of cars, and I began being able to hold conversations with Sadamoto and Tsurumaki about cars. So, this time, I wanted to try to put as much of those parts of me that hadn’t existed at the time of the old series or twelve years ago into [the film] as I could. Things like having an interest in eating meals, or riding cars, or being in Kamakura with my wife, or, at a social level, being married, and also working at my own new production studio. It’s a reaction to those parts. Unless I intentionally imbued [the film] with those parts of me that didn’t exist twelve years ago, then I would feel like things hadn’t changed after all.

I thought it would be good if these, if those “feelings” that weren’t previously present would take hold in the film. And for new interesting points that I could not fill in myself, I intended on quickly inserting new elements from the staff like Tsurumaki or Masayuki to get [the whole thing] into chaos…

The relationship between Eva and Hideaki Anno’s authorship

But the final decision is made by Anno-san. Tsurumaki-san’s opinion was that this is the reason that [the work] becomes “Eva.”

Anno: Before that [decision] I ask my assistant Todoroki what he thinks about it. Todoroki’s viewpoint, both as a fan and as a creator, is extremely accurate, so I’m very grateful for his advice. I think, if I’m aiming at entertainment, it’s no good if only I find it interesting. I also have to aim at the greatest happiness of the greatest number. I think it’s good if, to the best of my ability, I align my feelings about what is interesting with that.

Well, I insert my individual likes and preferences into the parts that are playful and not that important. That way it connects to [one’s] “fetishism”, and is good, I think, because it brings out “flavor” and “thickness” in the work. It’s not really the case that I’m forcibly [bending it to my whims]. At any rate, the things I am fixated on are there as well, but of course that’s because I wanted to place importance, not on envisioning the work from the beginning, but on the work somehow ending up a certain way without my intending it to, due to the course of the actual situation or to the unconscious, or to the mood. Well, it means always “favoring the interesting direction.” Eva in particular is created in this flexible manner.

Just because it’s “Eva”, the vast majority of people in society still believe that [the films are] a product of Anno-san’s authorship. This account must have been given many times.

Anno: It depends on the definition of authorship, but I don’t really feel that’s the case. That’s because, in my situation, rather than having a firm blueprint at the outset and saying, “as an author, I want to depict this theme”, I create while every day blindly trying to work out what I can do to make things interesting. It’s not a way of doing things where I start with the finished form and create [the work] aiming at that. Until the first screening I don’t know how it will end up; I do nothing but constantly change things in order to make it interesting. I do that up until the very last minute of the schedule. It’s like this every time. Well, it’s a lot of trouble for the staff.

It’s something like, “the principle of the supremacy of the work”, or that I want to place more importance on what will be of benefit to the work than on what I want to do personally. I think that’s what’s important. Well, I’m not concerned about my authorship and so on. I feel, more than anything, if the work is interesting, if it becomes more interesting, that’s good. I just have the responsibility of ultimately choosing, in accordance with what is possible to complete on time, what seems like it will end up being the most interesting idea or way at a given point in time.

I’m able to amuse and entertain the customers who pay to see [what I make]. If I put something in which makes them feel unpleasant, that’s also done with their interests in mind. Commercial films are both works [of art] and products. You’re creating for the people who watch them. I’ve always thought our job was [a part of] the service industry.

Although I felt that trying to treat Anno-san as an author was out of place with an evaluation of “Break”, I was somehow satisfied by what you said just now.

Anno: Because, for Eva, I’m at the core of the actual work, writing the original scenario and the scripts, I think that something like my authorship will leak out or seep through no matter what, but I feel that much is just right. Unlike manga or novels, you create as a group, which is something I love about film work. Of course, there is also a method of creating which says, “the purpose of the staff is to put the vision of the director onto film without the slightest deviation”. Anime in particular points in this direction, since, as a matter of efficiency, it’s well suited to the realization of a vision. For people who want to create an image along the lines of their visions, this is the recommended [form of] visual expression. But, if [anime is] well suited to realize a long-prepared vision, I think the work will end up being more interesting if, as far as possible, one were to combine the visions of various staff members, rather than just establishing a single vision. I think, if the work has a heart or a core, then it’s better if the image is entirely [thrown into] chaos. Rather than a whole with a sense of unity, I prefer that it be lacking in some respects. I think that human beings and human society are themselves like this, and that if the work too is composed of a variety of things, it will be more real for the audience, or carry a greater sense of reality. So, a cosmos forms in the midst of complete chaos, according to the intention of the director, or else naturally. That’s good. That’s how Eva is created. Over and over again—it’s extremely difficult.

Certainly I have the feeling that "Break," being created as you said, and really doing a variety of things in an incredibly short amount of time, tightly packs together ideas and designs from a number of different people. Watching it yourself, how do you find a work with this sort of sense of compression?

Anno: That's true. It is quite compressed. I do wonder if it's still okay [being in] that compressed state.

A good aspect is that you can enjoy many things in a short period of time. I thought that might be one reason the number of repeat viewers increased.

Anno: [The film] is fairly well packed with information. As a creator, I'm conscious [of the fact that] even if [someone] sees the film again there is still something stimulating, as [everything] cannot be processed in one go. Makki, as well, said that it was amazing to include so much in under two hours.

When I watched the "all rush" with you, I remember you asking me, "Isn't there somewhere we can make a cut?" However, [the final film] wasn't cut.

Anno: No, [the final film] is shorter than it was at that time. Condensing it, I was cutting frames individually, trying to streamline [the film] even by only a single frame. From the "all rush" time until the film reached its predetermined length I checked it on my genga desk every day.

[But] no sequences, as such, were cut [after that point].

Anno: I believe that sequences as such had already been cut in the version of the rushes that I had you look at. [I asked you] because I expected that I would drop a few scenes from the theatrical version following voice recording. Some had to do with the length of the film's running time, and the rest with no longer being able to finish on schedule.

After watching the rushes, I noticed parts that were somehow or other pointless or unnecessary. So, wanting to consult [with others], I went around asking staff members who came as close as possible to first time viewers - the women in administration, for example, or the equivalent King Records people - if, watching it, there were scenes that seemed long or unnecessary to them. Going through the rushes in minute detail so many times, I became short-sighted and had no sense of the flow of the drama. There are many things you finally notice watching [something] through from the beginning. The images of the rushes were made up of storyboard images, layout images, and rough genga that had been photographed, but there were also things I finally noticed when the character's voices were added to them.

A scene like this was where, after Shinji watches Rei wringing a cloth while she is cleaning the floor of the classroom, the two are alone in the elevator and he says, "you seemed like a mother." In the scene before that, Shinji was together with Asuka, and you got the feeling that Asuka opened her heart to him just a little bit. I couldn't have Shinji and Rei's conversation come directly after that. Shinji's state of mind becomes incoherent; here if we do not keep focusing on Asuka to move the story onwards, the flow will end up coming apart. I had thought that since they are all episodes involving Shinji so it should be okay, but if I kept it like that Shinji's mental state itself would have become too distracted.

It's embarrassing to say, but I didn't understand that until the voices were added to the images after voice recording. I was reminded again of the obvious fact that voices are extremely important for expressing emotion. Because that was an important scene for Shinji and Rei, I searched around for another place where I could substitute it, but it just wouldn't fit properly. The duration of the scene was also a bit long, and, after thinking about it, I cut it entirely.

New scenes necessary in order to bring Shinji towards adulthood

During voice recording, two versions of scenes, for example the cable car [i.e. the NERV tram] scene, were recorded. Was this [a kind of] insurance based on the assumption that there would be cuts?

Anno: It was among other things [a kind of] insurance, but in the end [that scene] was cut. Work [on that scene] progressed to the layout stage, but when I watched the rushes through, the only information there was Asuka playing a game by herself, Kaji appearing and [the film] communicating to the audience that he knows Misato, and the meeting between Shinji and Kaji. I thought the amount of essential information was slight, considering just how much was being crammed into a single sequence. That was the only purpose of the scene. This was a mistake of the script. Tsurumaki said, “this scene makes no sense.” Because it was storyboarded from an early version of the script, it was still forcibly including the image [of the meeting] from episode 8 of the TV series. I thought it wasn’t very good to include Misato there. However, when that scene was cut, Shinji and his friends ended up not meeting Kaji until the aquarium, [and you end up asking,] when did they get to know each other? However, for a number of reasons, I cut it.

Surprisingly, I didn’t notice that Shinji and Kaji first met at the aquarium.

Anno: That’s because you know the TV series. You had that image in mind before watching [the film], so to a certain extent you saw it in that way, but I think someone who didn’t know the TV series would definitely have caught it. So, because the initial meeting between Shinji and his friends and Kaji is an essential scene, we remade [the meeting] from the storyboards upwards and included it in 2.22.

The new aquarium-like sequence at the water purification plant takes on much of the weight of the [character?] depictions, but was there a special intention behind it?

Anno: It was to depict something Shinji had to know about. Something like “the enormity of the world.” [I wanted to depict] the sea and the sky and the earth, in a concrete way. If only the school and the city were depicted the whole way through, then that extensity would never emerge. As well, I wanted to put it in as a partial depiction of what really happened to the world to make the seas red.

For the earth, there’s the scene where he’s gardening with Kaji.

Anno: Right. This time as well, Kaji takes on the role of the adult who broadens Shinji’s knowledge. Kaji does the rite-of-passage type things that bring [a child] closer to adulthood and which one’s parents would do in a normal situation. The action of Shinji touching the earth in the [watermelon] patch was added afterwards. At the earliest point, due partially to the difficulty of the sakuga, Shinji only looked at the watermelons with Kaji; he didn’t help out with the weeding. However, after the premiere of “Prelude,” I went to Yamagata to collect information with my wife and her friends. For the first time in a long time I gathered up wild plants to eat, and I felt that this was of course the sort of situation that Shinji needs. I remembered the scent of the earth, something I had forgotten. It was owing to that real-life experience that I added Shinji pulling up the weeds. Although I pulled up weeds often when I was a child, after I went to Osaka and Tokyo, I no longer did it at all. Recently I moved to Kamakura, and once again my opportunities to come into contact with the soil have increased. It’s owing to my wife that I’ve been able to have this sort of experience [again]. From the bottom of my heart, I am grateful [to her].

Through the collective effort of a number of creators, completely revised angel designs

I would like to inquire about the angels as a new element this time around. Were the images of the angels basically something that you put forward?

Anno: For the third angel, I did the rough original sketch. The concept was that it had already been captured, dissected, analyzed, and securely stored away by human beings. So, the image was that of a specimen, the enormous skeleton of a living being. Also, because we associate skeletal monsters with Stegon<The fossil monster Stegon⁠, which appears in episode 10 (“The Dinosaur Explosion Directive”) of the tokusatsu series The Return of Ultraman. A dinosaur fossil discovered at a construction site revives as a skeletal monster.>⁠, we jokingly discussed giving it the ability to spew corrosive liquid from its mouth as a weapon (laughs).

Why did you end up choosing [Mohiro] Kitoh-san?

Anno: Because his designs are unique and interesting. I asked for something more along the lines of Narutaru than Bokurano. I thought that the image of the dragon king’s palace [to do with Narutaru?] was interesting, and that I would try creating an angel along the lines of that impression.

Was it created assuming that it would be in CG?

Anno: That’s right. Assuming it would be in CG, I had the image in mind of [a creature that was] basically just bones. Also, thinking that you might not get a sense of movement if it didn’t have some kind of legs, I added small ones. When we set it in motion, the impression it conveyed somehow became more cute than frightening. I thought, because of this, it could become popular with women, too (laughs). For the movement of its neck and tail, I of course had in mind the souen of tokusatsu.

The seventh angel was in the old familiar Heiwajima style.

Anno: That didn’t come from me. It was an idea proposed by (Daizen) Komatsuda-kun and Shigeto Koyama-san together.

There is a spikiness to it reminiscent of the Toshiba IHI pavilion at the 1970 World’s Fair⁠.

Anno: I felt that, as it was constructed out of a number of identical components, like [a construction with] blocks, geometrical, and possessing many components, it couldn’t be drawn by hand, and was best suited to CG. I [?] did express the opinion that it might end up being like the World’s Fair pavilion⁠. The final result tended a bit towards being “art”, but I thought it was good.

The design of the seventh angel changed repeatedly. When we were first doing work on “Prelude,” I requested a design in advance from okama-san. The studio was not yet ready for commissions [?]; this was at a considerably early stage. Anyway, I had him make many drawings with no predetermined image, and then we would go back and forth in response to them. As, at this stage in the work, it was so early that the visual image of the new films had yet to fully solidify in my mind, I had okama-san just draw for me. Afterwards, we had a plan in place where Unit-02 would be introduced by diving from mid-air to battle an angel in the water. So, an image of, or commission for, an aquatic angel that we could get away with not having move very much was decided upon. Since [depicting] Unit-02 here would use up our sakuga-drawing time, I decided from the beginning to do the angel in CG. However, before the “taste” of okama-san’s angel could really come together, I became busy with “Prelude,” and that [earlier] work seemed to spontaneously come to an halt.

So, when work resumed on “Break” after the first “Prelude” screening, I told Komatsuda-kun, who was in charge of that scene, that we could change the storyboards, and I asked him if he had any ideas. At that point he and Koyama-kun presented their proposal, and although I apologized to okama-san for doing so, I decided to use it. As the angel would only appear briefly, as, so to speak, a “yarare mecha”, I wanted it to have a visual impact. That was something the proposed design provided. In addition, it was good that the structure of the design, including the movement, was well-suited to CG.

What about the 8th angel, which you called the “falling angel” in production?

Anno: To start with, I asked (Takashi) Watabe-san [to do the design]. His design incorporated alterations while preserving the image of the original. The idea or conceit whereby the angel unfolds from a spherical shape was contributed by Watabe-san at this point. Only I felt his design was a bit too biological to be well-suited to CG. I wanted something with a strong visual impact, simple and geometrical as well as exciting. [Considered] as a [mental] image, it’s [really] just [something] falling, so I wanted to have that feeling visually. When I thought, who would be well-suited for this, then I realized, of course, it could only be Mahiro (Maeda). It was great, as we had time on the schedule, and Mahiro attacked the work enthusiastically. He submitted things like a visual image of something the color of squid ink moving, and a design where mysterious human forms danced along the bottom of a sphere. I liked that there was a strange kind of continual motion.

As I recall, the angel concealing itself when it first appears with a kind of mosaic effect was conceived during the making of the preview trailer. I didn’t want to clearly show the forms of the angels in the trailer. So, not knowing what to do, that was a desperate measure, but the result was good. Furthermore, the covering of itself with the A.T. Field and the deployment of the field as a rudder were ideas that we came up with on the spot and incorporated while viewing the output during the CG work.

What about the human form that finally emerges from within [the angel]?

Anno: As it becomes entangled with Unit-01, I decided that it would be the only part [of the angel] to be drawn as sakuga. I asked (Yoshito) Asari-san, who was occupied in the studio with the 10th angel’s design, if he would be able to do yet another task for me, and had him draw a few rough sketches or idea sketches on the spot. I have a feeling [this] commission was made relatively early on. I had Honda-kun make a final consolidation of the idea sketches. Later on, once Mahiro’s full design was complete, I had Honda-kun redraw the design all over again in order to give it consistency or identity. That became the form [of the angel] we would put on the screen.

I heard that the CG team had a great deal of difficulty with this angel.

Anno: Things didn’t go well at all. [There were difficulties with] the sense of enormity and the movement, and there was not enough time. We continually experimented with the image [of the angel] without it becoming settled. The work around that point went on in a total state of confusion. Again, we were doing a variety of things right up until satsuei.

I heard that the part where [the angel is] defeated was redone an astonishing number of times.

A: There were a number of difficulties doing that cut—the movement of the angel up until it liquefies, conveying the size of the angel, the utilization of the initial layout—and in the end we ran out of time, so we finished the minimum possible before the film went to theaters. Just about the only good thing was (Takashi) Hashimoto-kun’s sakuga of the wave. Accordingly, in 2.22 we tackled [that sequence] once again.

The onrush of the wave was tokusatsu-esque.

Anno: That was a scene Masayuki added in storyboarding. It was a cut he “ad-libbed” that wasn’t in the script, but the fact that it looked like the way water is poured out in tokusatsu was great. Hashimoto-kun’s sakuga were excellent, the satsuei and so on also went well, and [it ended up being] a great scene that looks like the product of an uncompromising effort. When I first watched the rushes, I thought that it needed a close up shot—or should I say, that I wanted to see one!—so I asked Norita (Takashi Hashimoto’s pet name) to add an additional cut. I was aiming at the tremendous energy of the scene where Sapporo collapses in the TV version of Japan Sinks.

Did the design of the ninth angel—that is, of Eva Unit-03—change?

Anno: Well, the design of Unit-03 itself [remained] just about the same, I think. We basically just changed the colors a little bit.

In the battle with Unit-03, the design of the dummy plug is new.

Anno: As there was no time at all to alter the design [of the plug] during the TV series, just about all that we could do was to have a laser disc start spinning in the back and change the color scheme with a full screen para overlay. This time we finally had the chance [to thoroughly change it], so I asked (Ikuto) Yamashita-kun to alter the design of the rear interior. He suggested that we give the rear interior a human form. I wanted the dummy plug to have the sense of a jumble of a number of elements: a slimy motion using CG, or a disgustingness to its motion; a robotic coldness, and yet a biological feeling that makes it seem like it might contain a human being. We took pains with the details of the movement, appearance, and so on, but the result was good.

After the dummy system begins operating, it becomes impossible for Shinji to see what is going on outside.

Anno: Right. This time I wanted to emphasize the sense that Shinji couldn’t do anything, so we created a situation where his hands had been forcibly restrained by lever-like devices [?], his monitors had been completely appropriated for the usage of the dummy system, and he could only guess what was happening based on the noises reverberating inside the plug. I thought, the dummy taking his place in the cockpit, his forward field of vision will also be obstructed. The image on the monitors is information from the outside seen from the perspective of the dummy system. [Just] an unusual screen image was enough.

Has the settei of the dummy plug itself also changed a little? There is a scene where Gendo is suggestively touching [the dummy plug].

Anno: Right. I’m not sure it will come out in the work, but I am thinking in terms of a settei slightly altered from the original.

The design of the tenth angel, which corresponds to the angel from episode nineteen of the TV series, has also been considerably altered.

Anno: Right. That was also the result of repeated changes. I wanted to transform [the 14th angel from the TV series] into a new angel based on the original design, as I wanted new designs for all the angels in “Break”. Accordingly, just like with the TV series, I had Asari-san drawing various rough sketches [of the angel’s design] in the studio. I had Honda-kun revise those into settei.

Only the face remained identical to the TV version, as the face, I thought, was good, after all. The idea was that it would be more interesting to start by misleading the audience members who knew the previous work into thinking for a moment that this was the same angel [as before], and then rapidly transform it. The idea came up at a meeting between Asari-san, Makki, and myself.

The transforming, the growing of the tentacles, and so on, is an idea characteristic of Asari-san.

Anno: Yeah. I believe that the foundation, and many other things, were ideas that came from Asari-san. As we were aiming at something that would appear the same as before but be in fact different, Asari-san was greatly troubled [by the difficulty of it].

When I interviewed Tsurumaki-san, he said that the “pata-pata” [sound of paper fluttering; i.e. the paper arms] conceit was material that came from the proposal for the TV series⁠, and he wasn’t sure why it was changed [in the film].

Anno: That was because I thought that its impact was, in the end, likely a one-time thing. Originally, at the time of the series proposal, the initial image was an “origami angel,” a cube that would change shape, going “pata-pata.” Then, it would link up and form a Moebius strip⁠, and so on. That was what we were thinking during [the initial] planning. However, in the production environment of a television series at that time, that sort of depiction was very much impossible. So, that really was a design used in the series proposal that existed from the beginning. However, I intended to at least use the “pata-pata” idea somewhere. So, for episode 19, I thought that, as this is the most powerful angel, I have to use it here. The Moebius strip [idea] was considerably simplified and brought over to episode 23. But, we were able to do it at that time because we were finally able to use simple 3D CG models as guides for the sakuga.

The “pata-pata” [element] of the angel was really well done, so it was hard to abandon it, as a visual [element] as well [as a design concept]. But I feel like I took the risk of switching to a different method of attack because I was searching for change.

Was the new development where [the angel] devours Unit-00 also something you conceived during the initial scenario-writing stage?

Anno: Well, the storyline where Unit-01 devours the angel was no longer present at the earliest stage of the plot. For the new movies, from the earliest stage of planning there was a conception where “Unit-01 will reach its operational limit, cease moving, and nearly become absorbed by the tenth angel; in order to save Shinji, Rei will forcibly unite Unit-00 with the angel and self-destruct.” The script was written according to that conception up until the fifth draft. That changed from the seventh draft on to a conception where the angel devoured Unit-00. It seemed more natural that, rather than deliberately fusing with the angel, Rei would be devoured by the angel and absorbed against her will. I didn’t arrive at that idea until a great deal of time had passed. I lamented my lack of talent [afterwards], wondering why I hadn’t thought of it before then.

Why hadn’t you?

Anno: Well, it was as Ritsuko’s line expresses it, something impossible. [Impossible] in terms of the settei in my mind. But I thought that was good, so it was better this way. I thought, I can just rethink the settei to conform with it (laughs). What was important was the appeal of the circumstance of the angel devouring the Eva.

Tsurumaki-san also said something about wanting to make the design after the absorption resemble a Sentai Series villainess.

Anno: I thought, if we put it on screen, it would be a little too much [like] a manga. I felt that, if it has a vaguely human body and balances itself, in cel anime, a symbolic [means of] expression, it won’t be seen as anything but a giant human being. I thought that, if this was live action, there would be a way to do it, but it’s difficult in anime. We didn’t have the time or resources to do something with it. On top of that, Komatsuda-kun saying that he wouldn’t allow a woman to be beaten [in the film] was a major reason. He had a strong negative reaction, saying that, even if it is not a woman in terms of the settei, the male protagonist will be striking something that can only appear [to the viewer] as a woman, and that he was unable to direct or depict that. I thought that it certainly isn’t good if we have a person rejecting [the design] to this extent. So, with accumulated revisions, it became the current design. In color coordination, there were still a variety of issues concerning what to do about base colors and what to do about irowake⁠. Finally, it reached its current form.

The Eva designs change with “Break”

In part D, there is a new development where Mari activates Unit-02’s bestialized form, “the beast.” How did you decide upon that?

Anno: I wanted Unit-02 to go out of control, but it would be dull if it was just the same as with Unit-01. So [the concept] arose when I asked for suggestions. It combined ideas from Shin-chan and Yamashita-kun.　I think it was Yamashita-kun [who came up with the idea of] an Eva being liberated by the control rods coming out of its body. The addition [of the structure of the rods] resembling the dorsal fin of a monster, and other things, [was made], I think, in Shin-chan’s image boards. My memories of that period are a little unclear.

The struggle to depict the [Eva’s] abandonment of humanity was [surely] difficult. I got [some people] to do something about it by way of deploying good sakuga. Really, they did an excellent job, with no time for Unit-02’s sakuga on the schedule. Incredible. As is typical of them.

It seems that the design of Mark.06 is a bit different than it was in the preview [at the end] of “Prelude.”

Anno: It’s fundamentally the same. The design of Unit-06 was more or less completed during work on “Prelude.” For this film, only a few balance-related adjustments were made. The dark blue coloring, too, was decided upon from the outset.

This was the Eva that you intended Kaworu to pilot.

Anno: Yeah. In the earliest version of the script I thought he would make a showier entrance, but [in the end] I felt having him be so quiet was better for the scene.

The lance we see at the lunar base is the same one that appears in the final scene.

Anno: Yeah. I think, because we covered it up, it was hard to understand as foreshadowing, but I thought that much was fine. The lance also has a name, which was supposed to appear in Kaworu’s final dialogue. However, as the events of the story prior to that changed, it ended up not coming in. Even so, in the fifteenth draft, Kaworu was going to say a number of things. However, in the final sixteenth draft, that part was cut out entirely, because it was boring to have him just recite the settei.

How was it doing Eva design once more?

Anno: I had determined in advance that Unit-05 would be done in CG, so from the beginning it had the settei of being provisional. Because of that, from the [design] requests onwards, it was decided that it would not be bipedal. At the initial uchiawase [for Unit-05] with Yamashita-kun, I said something like, it could move on caterpillar treads, and when it stands erect shift to bipedal movement as well. I wanted to try doing the rolling movement of ritai and pivot turns in CG. However, that was rejected by Yamashita-kun, who said that he didn’t want to do it because it would resemble Shin Getter-3 (sad expression). Due to that, it [was given] a four-wheel type of movement. That way, it could drift, and also convey a feeling of speeding along, so that was fine too, I thought.

Since I wanted to avoid having it fight hand-to-hand with [small] hand-held weapons, it was given a lance, which only had to thrust, and a claw as its weapons. As an anti-angel weapon, a lance had [something of] the image of the lance of Longinus, and it also made it feel like [Unit-05’s] operation had been specialized, so I thought that would be good.

The idea of giving it power through a trolley system also came from Yamashita-kun. That was good, as it also changed things visually, and again gave the feeling that [Unit-05’s] operation had been specialized for [use] within the base. After Yamashita-kun’s work had finished I added a few minor details. I believe the work of revising the model was terrible [for Yamashita]. Though I was sorry about that, there was nothing I could do.

Since the main body was developed jointly by Europe and Russia, the coloring integrates the images of the R-type rocket and the Eurostar in an easily understandable way. Even though we had this image [of integrating the R-type rocket and Eurostar] we struggled to achieve a balance in the color scheme and we ended up taking time. Although at one point we settled on a scheme, the large number of colors was annoying, so I asked [Yamashita] to redo it once more, toning down the coloring. The digital components really caused great difficulty.

Since [work on] “Prelude” I had been thinking that, if we were taking the trouble to make a new work, then I would change Unit-02[’s design] as well. I thought to simply add a pair of fins or antenna to bring out [or alter] the shape of the head, but when I gave it to Yamashita-kun, he changed [the design] a little too much, so I asked Shisho (Takeshi Honda’s pet name), [serving as] a sakkan, to make the final adjustments. What resulted was like the bow of a warship. Maybe that was due to the fact that around that time I was producing the Yamato model design (laughs)⁠. The coloring was established to conform with [the style of] Unit-01 and Unit-00 in “Prelude.” I remember having difficulties with the color of the arms. This time around—for Unit-01, as well—we changed the colors of things like the multi-layered chest armor plates and the spinal covering a little. For the arms, too, I added a stripe, thinking that since this was “series two” I wanted a “Return Of…” [kind of] feeling. Honda-kun changed the full-body proportions of the Evas of his own initiative, [in accordance with] how he wanted them to be. As a I mentioned earlier, Unit-06 was just about the same [in “Break”] as in the preview [at the end] of “Prelude.”

The designs of the plugsuits changed a little bit this time around as well.

Anno: Yeah. I entrusted it to O-Sada, and he changed them a bit for me. I wanted to add a different feeling onto the screen, even if only a little bit. With Mari, I aimed to distinguish her from the other pilots by having her wear two kinds of suits, a generation behind and a generation ahead, old and new.

others

advertising

Contains various posters as well as the teasers and trailers broken down cut by cut.

the other

Contains pic of all the other promotional stuff: movie tickets and pamphlets, OST and DVD covers, Doritos packs, UCC coffee cans and other stuff.

scenario

Contains the 48 page script.

poster

A foldout poster of Mari drawn up by Sadamoto

External links

• Evangelion 2.0 Complete Records Collection - Gwern.net, Compilation of Numberkun's translations

Notes and References

List of Official Publications

General: Newtype Film Books | Newtype 100% Collection | Movie Pamphlets | Eva Fan Club | Evangelion Chronicle

Production: Neon Genesis Evangelion Proposal | Evangelion Original | Storyboard Collections | Concept Design Collections

Sore o Nasumono: NGE Concept Design Works | Groundwork of Evangelion

Art Books: Der Mond | Die Sterne | Carmine | 2015: The Last Year of Ryohji Kaji | Photo Files (Adam & Eve) | Evangelion Chronicle Illustrations

Other: E-Mono | Evangelion RPG: The Nerv White Paper | Evangelion RPG: Angelic Advent | End of Evangelion: Boku to iu Shingou | It's A Miraculous Win| | All About Kaworu Nagisa: A Child of the Evangelion | Schizo/Parano

Rebuild of Evangelion

General: Movie Pamphlets | Groundwork of Evangelion | Evangelion the New Movies: Storyboards | Eva Extra

Eva 1.0: Evangelion 1.0: Entry File 1 | Evangelion 1.0 Complete Records Collection

Eva 2.0: Evangelion 2.0 Complete Records Collection