Theory and Analysis Talk:Eva-00's Soul

I'd prefer not having full Eva designations in page titles if possible. Partially because they include that awful "U" word, but mostly because writing all of that out gets awfully annoying. Here, something like, "The Soul of EVA-00" seems nice and succinct. (I like "of" better than "in".)

Also, should these sorts of pages have their own namespace? Part of me thinks it would be A Good Idea. --Reichu 18:19, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

As it is, "The Soul in Evangelion Unit-00" falls under "T" for "The". This can't be right, so would "Evangelion Unit-00's Soul" (or something similar) be better? This isn't anything to worry about now with just a handful of articles, but it may be rather confusing when more are added. --Eva Yojimbo 10:36, 18 August 2007 (EDT)

This page is the next on the cleanup list. If it's okay, I'll move this to "Eva-00's soul." Simple and efficient.--UrsusArctos 02:52, 20 March 2008 (PDT)

Page cleanup

Can someone please help out with the cleanup? Particularly with any dubious points that need to be removed.--UrsusArctos 03:52, 2 April 2008 (PDT)

Calling out again. Who else thinks the doublethink section needs to be removed? --UrsusArctos 07:32, 18 April 2008 (PDT)

I do. It's too much like pointless speculation. A few years back there were some people on the Anime Nation Forum who believed that when Ep. 15 was written it really was supposed to be Adam in Terminal Dogma, and that the writters had changed their minds and and made it Lilith at the last minute. This was the same kind of speculation. Just as I wouldn't want this added to the Ep. 24 page, in the absence of any evidence , the "mind changing" theory should be deleted from the Eva-00 page. We need to work with the show as it is, not as it would have been had the writers written a different show.--thewayneiac 17:21 EDT. April 18, 2008

Done. Is there anything else in the article that looks odd or needs to be changed? --UrsusArctos 18:14, 18 April 2008 (PDT)

moved from forum...

[1]

While it is gratifying to see that you have conceded that the evidence strongly favors Rei 1 over Naoko, I still have some serious reservations with how you have presented the pro and cons of this issue; namely that you a: have omitted mentioning some of the strongest evidence favoring Rei 1, and b: have conceded too much (even while admitting that it almost certainly wrong) to the Naoko heresy, which I contend is entirely bogus and baseless.

I'm not sure how best to deal with this; if I had written this analysis myself, I would have gone about it quite differently (i.e., my starting assumption would be that all the real evidence points to Rei 1, while the pro-Naoko "case" comes down to a faulty assumption (that Unit-00 may have been after Gendo and/or Rei, when, in fact, the actual target of its tantrums was Ritsuko, and Ritsuko alone). I don't know whether editing your analysis could salvage it to my satisfaction, or should I just write my own presentation on Unit-00's soul (would competing analyses of the same issue in the 'Theories and Analysis' section be an acceptable option?)--Shin-seiki 08:29, 6 October 2007 (PDT)

Can't say much about the "B" pro-Naoko stuff; it won't be removed. Just giving as thorough a run through of the pre-Naoko side as possible, before then deconstructing it thoroughly. Just explaining "this is what the Naoko theory says" does not mean "conceding" to it, if the "counterarguement" part then lists how most of these points are refuted. As for "A"; please, what are the "ommitted mentionings of the strongest evidence favoring Rei 1" that wasn't listed? I'd like to put it in there if there is something I missed. --V 17:47, 6 October 2007 (PDT)

One thing that I noticed that was left out (don't know if this is what Shin-seiki is referring to) is during the cross sync test in ep14, Asuka raises a fuss about not taking part in the experiment, Misato appeases her by saying she wouldn't want anyone using Eva-02 anyways, but then to herself, Misato says that Eva-02 wouldn't work anyways. Not sure what she meant by this exactly, but I'd always thought that it was because neither Shinji nor Rei would be compatible with Kyoko. Since Rei is a special case, we're left with Shinji. If Shinji isn't able to sync with Kyoko, why would he be able to sync with Naoko?

Also, it may be worth noting that some of the people who still cling to the Naoko in Eva-00 idea have such a unique interpretation of the events in the series, that there's no chance of any mutual agreement about nearly everything discussed about the show. I remember some member on EMF and I had a super long debate about this, and every point that I make is countered with a "I don't think that's how it worked", also, refusing to acknowledge any source that isn't the show itself doesn't help. --Ornette 18:53, 6 October 2007 (PDT)

I did consider that it my (stalled) analysis of episode 14 itself: the problem I ran into was: Misato doesn't know Evas have souls; I speculate that they just divided internal monologues up between Misato and Ritsuko; otherwise, as Ritsuko is generally the only one "in the know", it would have amounted to LONG stretches of solely Ritsuko-dialogue. They make the point that Asuka might not work in another Eva....but Shinji works ok in hers, and they delivered it fairly sloppy. --V 19:00, 6 October 2007 (PDT)

I added some of the missing evidence that Shin-seiki was talking about: the episode 25 script identifying floating Rei as Rei 1, and Eva-00 seeing Ritsuko as Naoko. But, in the end, the actual conflict here is that as it stands, the article is understating the strength of the evidence. What Shin-seiki is saying, and I've been saying all along, is that the evidence presented in the article, even before I added the additional material, is strong enough to warrant the conclusion that Rei 1 is the soul of Eva-00 without the use of weasel words like "probably", and that the article should say so. Things like "never explictly stated" are not the proper standard to use in Evangelion. --thewayneiac Oct. 08, 2007. 21:11 EDT.

1. Very good info on the script information thanks
2. the "Mistaking Ritsuko for Naoko" thing doesn't really hold up with the screenshots so I've removed it: it's an obscure angle on Ritsuko from Episode 14 which doesn't really seem to be intentional on the animator's part at all, and in either case, Ritsuko was far more visible in Episode 05 already.
3. Make no mistake, the "unofficial yet official" stance is "it's Rei 1", the point was just made that "they never came out and actually said that, but dear viewer, consider it Rei 1". The article already comes down solidly on the Rei 1 side, and it doesn't need to be made more conclusive than it already is. --V 18:28, 8 October 2007 (PDT)

On second thought, a blanket statement "it's possible EVa 00 mistook Ritsuko for her similar looking mother Naoko" seems pretty good, and universally applicable; my issue was just with the poor quality of the animation cells leading me to believe they didn't animate a hint or something, but "thematically" it might be possible. --V 18:32, 8 October 2007 (PDT)

I hope you are okay with this form; thanks for going to the trouble of getting the images, I just thought they ultimately wouldn't be of help. Would you like anything changed or shifted around?--V 18:40, 8 October 2007 (PDT)

Well, Wayne jumped the gun on me bringing up some of the pro-Rei evidence that had been omitted (tho I suppose that's my fault for not following up on this sooner). Anyway, the most important point that had been left out was the fact that in ep25, in the Case of Rei Ayanami, we see 'Weird Bug-eyed Floating Head Rei', which is identified in the script as Rei 1. This bit of evidence is the stake thru the heart of Naoko-in-Unit-00. Consider the context of what is going on in this part of ep25: the present Rei (Rei 3) is communing with her previous incarnations Rei 1 and Rei 2, and the script identifies which Rei is speaking. It is only logical to conclude that Bug-eyed Rei (which Shinji saw in ep14, when the entity within Unit-00 was trying to enter his mind) is appearing here because she is, in fact, another of the incarnations of Rei's soul, and is designated in the script as Rei 1. Once this point is established, what is there left to discuss? This is pretty definitive evidence that the entity in Unit-00 is a manifestion of Rei's soul (or, more precisely, a portion thereof that is specifically connected to Rei's first incarnation that was strangled by Naoko Akagi)--Shin-seiki 06:31, 9 October 2007 (PDT)

Whie it is good to know that it was Rei 1 in Episode 25, it doesn't "put a stake through the heart"; "Buy Eyed Rei" in Episode 14 was thus probably Rei 1....but even if it was, that doesn't necessariy rue out everything else, what with Rei's Quantum Mechanics and crud. The mention that the script says the one in Episode 25 is good, but besides some tweaking the whole thing is pretty good; I mean it concludes it was almost certainly Rei 1 anyway...--V 11:08, 9 October 2007 (PDT)

When we see the "Bug Eyed Rei" in 14, it follows immediately the line: "The intrusion's coming from the Eva.", which to me, makes it seem the source of the Rei is from the Eva, and not externally. --Ornette 15:48, 9 October 2007 (PDT)

Re: Ritsuko Images. V, I'd like you to take another look at these images; they're not quite as slipshod as you are saying. For instance: they took the care to have Ritsuko's lab coat unbuttoned as usual, with her blue shirt showing. See the shot from ep. 02 for comparison.

From Episode 14

From Episode 02

Also, Rei's hair seems to be the correct color. As for the "low quality", those images have been circulating on various forums for many years and are probably from "Perfect Collection", so higher quality versions could probably be made or found. BTW, this is not a new theory on my part; these images have been used to make this same point many times. When I saw that a familiar part of the debate was missing, I added it into the mix. (Jumping the gun on Scott (Shin-seiki) who was planning on doing the same.) --thewayneiac Oct. 09, 2007 19:49 EDT.

Well its good that it was brought up, but the Ritsuko thing looks like its just making a mountain out of a molehill; rewatching the scene, its obviously focusing on Rei in the central window, and while Ritsuko's hair is colored wrong...maybe it's just to show shadowing, or maybe it was just a mistake. She's standing next to the divider so coloring could just have gotten a little squished. Point is; I don't really think the images themselves actually show anything, the article now mentions the generic possibility that Eva 00 attacked Ritsuko purely because she's Naoko's daughter, etc. The actual point is in there now, but the animation in the scene doesn't particularly look like its trying to hint at anything (if it had been a really dark room like episode 03 and they were obviously trying to present it like "Ritsuko looks different" maybe, not it doesn't really look like that at all. No need to pick up on every mistake as a hint, otherwise we verge on "Eva 01 is a phallic symbol because of its horn...."--V 11:13, 10 October 2007 (PDT)