Talk:Zeruel

Cleanup Job

Ursus, the paring down is looking good. There are some odds and ends that might be worth reinstating (don't worry about those now), but overall my head is nodding vigorously along with the crap that's getting slashed. Keep it up!

For here and elsewhere, I'd suggest that the Angels' "Biology" sections get renamed "Profile", and the Wall of Text effect be dumbed down by breaking the content down intuitively. For example, Anatomy, Abilities, blah blah blah. As far as pictures go, Zeruel ought to have a few uploaded already (Episode 19 Screenshots and Production) which you can throw into the text or into a montage box or whatever. Remember that if you have an image in mind that isn't uploaded already, just mention it on the request page.

Also, this talk page is hellishly long. I advance that the old crap get dumped onto an archive page of some sort. (Wikipedia has those.) --Reichu 10:37, 7 May 2009 (PDT)

Thanks. I'll have a final go at the page soon, images and all.

As for this talk page, I'm sure there's more than one talk page needing archival somewhere on the site. The talk page for "Eva-00's Soul" had plenty of discussion in it, for instance. Implementing archival may allow us to spare talk pages that are useful when the main pages aren't...perhaps we'll talk about this in a forum thread? --UrsusArctos 05:10, 8 May 2009 (PDT)

Initial Bout

You know, I never noticed before that Zeruel's face got impaled on Eva 01's horn; the shot was kind of dark. Then again, it's not bleeding or anything, so maybe there's a big hollow cavity inside the face plate and it didn't really do a lot of damage (it's not like we see eyes or anything)...--V 09:09, 4 August 2007 (EDT)

Eva Commentary took at look at the scene where Zeruel is sliced up by Shogoki- from the looks of it, something invisible shoots down the arm and even knocks the A.T.Field out of alignment before slicing through him.

On an additional note, I have a bone to pick with the S2-core theory- Zer is sliced above the core, and Shogoki eats (Or at least bites) his head as well. I have to see it again, but I seriously think that the S2 isn't in the core after all...but that's for elsewhere.--UrsusArctos 10:11, 4 August 2007 (EDT)

Duh, here it is! http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-19/episode-19B-scene12A.html

I interpret it as whatever Shogoki did that sliced Zeruel, not the flying shards.--UrsusArctos 10:43, 4 August 2007 (EDT)

I asked Reichu on the Core thing, and just repeated what she said. Yeah, that's for elsewhere and another time, though. On the "to do" list...Anyway, yes, the freezeframe shows that Zeruel's remaining arm is intact...well, all of it is off to one side, when "something else" is tearing up its main body. Of course, there's always the question of "did they just animate this sequence badly and not fix their mistake"? but I'll just drop that and trust what's on-screen. Yeah, the evidence is all there, change it back. --V 20:23, 4 August 2007 (EDT)

Sachi didn't take that many blasts to get through- it was Zer who was shooting all over the place. Even after the multiple shots, there still was one armor plate left(Aoba says that distinctly), and Sachiel actually was doing the same thing-shooting all over the place in the same sort of way. You can see Sachiel's X-blast penetrate into the Geofront itself, something that Zeruel actually doesn't do.

As an aside, I don't even think Hyuga is there in the second episode when Sachi and Zer are going against each other, or did he not realize that the Geofront Armor had been broken through? The fact that Sachiel can't fly except for a short distance must have slowed him down a bit when he was searching for an entry.

Sachiel's weapon is actually as nasty as Zeruel's...although Eva 01 seems to have used its A.T. Field to block that. The A.T.F. wasn't up in those confined spaces, or else even Zeruel's blasts might've been stopped. --UrsusArctos 21:48, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

Sachiel's energy weapon is not as powerful as Zeruel's. --V 22:09, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

Thumbnailing

@V: I intentionally didn't create a thumbnail of the "fists" production drawing. I'm fetching various screenies, etc., to illustrate various points highlighted in the writeup -- far too many to feasibly include thumbnails of, barring a spacious gallery or something. What are your thoughts? --Reichu 11:38, 13 August 2007 (EDT)

Actually I envisioned the Angel and Eva pages being filled with lots of pics of Angels and Evas. Or underneath "Notes" and "Analysis" there could just be an "Images" section; but I wouldn't want to put them on a separate page. For now, though, until there are far too many images, inserting thumbnails is the best cure for the "wall of text" problem; jazzes up the article, etc. I'm in "cross that bridge when we get to it" mode. --V 11:41, 13 August 2007 (EDT)

"Lots" meaning "whenever they serve to illustrate a point", hopefully. In Zeruel's case, for instance, I'm going to fetch: "accordion arms"; Zeruel's arms at maximum observed length (after chopping off Nigouki's arms); Zeruel using his "hand" to grab Sho's head; the sinewy "neck"; four blasts at the same time; and, well, you get the idea...

In the absense of thumbnails in the immediate vicinity, I kind of like having image links directly following the points they're meant to illustrate. Reinforces the sense of purpose. --Reichu 11:50, 13 August 2007 (EDT)

We can fidget them around later; linking to them is fine for now. Of course, my whole view is "A guy from Weta Digital should be able to read this page and now even the tiniest detail about an Angel's design, so they damn well better get it right"--V 12:09, 13 August 2007 (EDT)

I originally uploaded the "long arms are looooooong" image specifically to provide a link after the "maximum observed length" statement. I implemented it a bit on the late side; the image was never intended to be a generic "Battle" pic. PUT THE LINK BACK! (breathes fire)

Also, a grammar lesson: When a complete sentence follows a colon, the first letter is capitalized. For whatever reason, you downsized the boldfaced "E" here...

"Zeruel possesses a protective lid capable of shielding the core when threatened, and it serves as a testament to Zeruel's incredibly tough constitution: Even when an N² bomb is detonated in direct contact with the (protected) core, not only is the red sphere left completely unscathed -- the rest of the body is, as well."

...while leaving similar instances alone. And when recorrected it, back it went to lowercase! Hey, what gives? --Reichu 20:56, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

I just asked an English teacher I know over the phone if "When a complete sentence follows a colon, the first letter is capitalized" and she told me, in her professional capacity, that this never happens and the words coming after a colon are always lowercase.

As for the images, it makes no sense to have the images only to not show them in the "Zeruel" article but link away from them through text links. Instead, the actual images should be in the article (the production sketches I want moved to the notes section if you think them unfit for the main article). Problem is that you can't have a ton of images all bunched together, so I tried to evenly spread them out through the article by showing some shots in the "battle" section, just to even the article out visually. --V 22:17, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

Regarding colons, I'm fairly certain this is an instance of variable usage, i.e., "it depends on who you ask". (This search result is "case in point".) My habits were largely set in place by my mom -- who had been a professional editor for a textbook company -- when she took the red pen to my school papers. And regarding English teachers, there are many who would vehemently oppose quotational habits that I believe both of us use, even though they might be perfectly acceptable in other circles. That said, I think my way of handling crap after colons looks nicer. ::p

The Radioactive Waste page demonstrates the horrors of including too many images. A very small handful in the article itself, but that's it. You need to be incredibly selective -- i.e., not thumbnailing every odd thing I upload -- otherwise you're just going to be creating a cluttered mess. --Reichu 23:23, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

Zeruel vs Sachiel

Although Hyuga is astounded when Zeruel destroys eighteen layers of armor with his first shot, Sachiel accomplished the same feat visibly needing fewer shots. In fact, one of Sachiel's "energy crucifixes" goes completely through the roof and explodes inside the Geofront itself. Since construction had almost been completed at that time, it is very likely that all twenty-two armor layers were in place, implying that Sachiel's weapon was actually the more powerful of the two (Although incapable of multiple shots and nearly harmless to the berserk Eva-01) --It takes a LONG time for Sachiel to finally break through the armor layers; it's what allows them to take so much time up with Shinji being whiny in episode 1. Zeruel is treated as NEAR-INSTANTLY slicing through almost all of the armor plates in a single shot. Zereul's energy blast is clearly stronger than Sachiel's. We need to hammer this out and come to a final form before we can keep editing this, otherwise it will drag out for a while--V 20:39, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

Have you forgotten that Zeruel can fly, while Sachiel can only jump? Sachi was walking around looking for the hole he blasted when the Eva came up. And Zeruel takes enough time with his shooting for Shinji to get back into the Geofront as well. Sachiel came on the scene a little late, and his shooting caused enough of shakes that you knew when he was shooting, not to mention the one that exploded inside the Geofront.

Not to mention that Sachiel actually does something Zeruel can't: he can shoot that blast horizontally (Although Eva-01 somehow doesn't feel a thing. I suppose the armor they fitted before Ramiel melted it was superior to the crap they put on later). Let's ask Reichu what she thinks of Sachi-kun...

--UrsusArctos 21:07, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

Well...yeah; Sachiel was walking around trying to blast through a weak point, while Zeruel just started blasting away and easily got through. I think the armor it had before and after Ramiel is exactly the same. Sachiel's energy blast eventually couldn't hurt Eva 01 at all (even the skullbuster shot took a few tries) while Zeruel just blew its arm off.--V 21:21, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

Sachi's last explosion was the one that dropped the lights from the cieling and prompted the Eva to shield Shinji. In any case, why would he use a crucifix weapon at such close distance, unless he were to set the beam horizontal? Both Sachiel and Zeruel fire the shots from a distance- Sachi from a hilltop, Zer from the air. And from the size of the blasts, I doubt they just got lucky and hit a weakspot.

Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong; Hyuga didn't turn up until Episode 03, neither did Aoba. Neither of them would have been there to see Sachiel's blasting for themselves. And for Sachiel's blast having no effect: it seems to be the type of blast that matters. Sachiel, Israfel and Sahaquiel went off in pretty big bangs, but even Sahaquiel's death explosion didn't hurt the Evas (Eva-01 sustained minor damage trying to hold the Angel up before the other two Evas arrived). Shinji starts to cook as soon as Ramiel starts melting the armor, while Zeruel's blast, the one that actually blew off the armor, didn't hurt Shinji inside or cause visible damage to the entry plug. --UrsusArctos 21:35, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

We're not comparing them to Ramiel we're comparing Sachiel and Zeruel. Hyuga, Aoba, and Maya are physically in the command center they just don't talk alot. By all means they're intended to be there. --V 21:39, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

My bad about Hyuga and Aoba. Stupid me...I was thinking of Maya in Episode 01! I brought Ramiel , Israfel and Sahaquiel in to prove a point about why Sachiel's cross-blast was ineffective. Like the mysterious method Longinus no Yari employs to go out to space and penetrate A.T. Fields, some attacks have less of an effect on an Eva or an Angel. It just doesn't mean they're less powerful.

Now, if you don't understand my analogy with Longinus no Yari and why the Spear does things that an ordinary spear of that size cannot, I think we'll dump the whole stupid topic. --UrsusArctos 02:50, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

I thought I was the only person who got into Nerd Fights on the discussion pages. KYA KYA KYA.

Is there really that much of a point in trying to sic the different Angels against one another?--Reichu 02:53, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

Come to think of it? No...ever since when did monsters like that make sense? --UrsusArctos 04:22, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

Sachiel & Zeruel: "We resent being called 'monsters', sir." --Reichu 04:31, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

Okay, ever since when did fifty-meter human kids with Crucifix Blasts, Energy Lances and ALMIGHTY TOILET PAPER OF DOOM make sense? Matter settled. --UrsusArctos 07:25, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

They make such a big point of actually having Hyuga, in the script, say "OMG it shot through almost the entire armor plating in a single shot!" that it seems Zeruel is presented as having more powerful energy blasts. Heck, it's daytime-dusk when Sachiel starts blasting into Tokyo-3 and its NIGHT by the time he punches through. It's not just trival comparison, because in the actual Zeruel page it's going to say "his energy beam is notably more powerful than all of the other Angels, including probably even Ramiel". Thus this feeling that Sachiel's was more powerful comes into direct conflict. Okay Reichu, how should the bullet point about this be written? I mean I'd have written something like: "Zeruel's energy blast is more powerful than any other...etc. etc.", as was originally in there. --V 13:18, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

Well, how about... we just put down what Zeruel actually does (in terms of what we are told or can directly observe), and leave the "Which Angel would win in a fight?" stuff out of the encyclopedia? --Reichu 14:48, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

It's not a silly "who would win in a fight" thing, we're trying to quantify (measure) their abilities. --V 14:58, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

The point I was trying to make is, "Do we really have enough information to do that in any meaningful kind of way?"

I doubt it. Hence, stick to the basics, and let the fanwanking happen somewhere else, especially if it's going to cause this kind of disagreement. --Reichu 15:03, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

I touched up the entry to add in what facts we know (i.e. that Hyuga treats it like "OMG, look at all the armor it shot through") I think this is correct. Please don't change it back again (though "tweaking" isn't the same thing as just completely reversing it). --V 21:22, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

Zeruel's eyes

The two eyes hidden inside the deep "sockets" are, as with Zeruel's kin Sachiel and Israfel, employed for both vision and energy projection -- however, their capabilities in the latter area are considerably more potent. Should we reword that? We can't say for sure where the crucifix blasts and energy beams come from. Sachiel's actual eyes were hidden somewhere inside his mask until he decided to go boom, and we never get to see Zer's eyes in those huge sockets. The first shot looks like it comes from Zeruel's mouth (Or it just might look that way because of the distance from which he's seen). There's no way we can conclusively say that Zeruel (or Sachiel or Israfel) are using their real eyes as weapons, or if they just aren't using the eye sockets as an aiming convenience for shooting exploding energized fragments of their own matter (A la Sahaquiel). Shooting four separate locations at once is wierd- either Zeruel can look four places at once, which I doubt (Since he moves his head inside the bridge), or he just uses it to conveniently aim both the energy beams and the crucifix explosions. --UrsusArctos 22:37, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

Since their eyes light up before they fire off energy blasts, the eyes are clearly being used in some manner. How is up for grabs, but "energy projection" sounds good to me. Zeruel provides a bit of a precedent here since we see energy quite literally shoot out of his eyes and do damage.

The four cross-blasts Zeruel fired didn't rise all at once, but in succession.

As for "mouth", not quite sure how you're coming to that conclusion... We're getting a frontal view from which Zeruel's eyes wouldn't be clearly visible, given the angle at which his head is titled. --Reichu 00:00, 25 August 2007 (EDT)

That was in pretty rapid succession. I didn't think he could twitch his head around fast enough to shoot all four locations in two seconds. I also said, "seemed". It could have been his eye structures, anyway. My point is that their eyes can't be seen when they're firing, and who knows what Zeruel has inside those huge sockets? Even if the whole eye socket lights up, there's no telling if his eyes are the only things in there? He might have eyes to see, and a seperate weapon to shoot. Or else he uses A.T. Field voodoo to refract light into his actual eyes, and uses the holes to shoot energy beams. If Sachiel's yellow, bulging eyes had been visible outside those holes, and lit up while firing, I'd know for sure that he really was using his eyes as weaponry. I'm not saying he isn't; I'm saying we can't say it for certainty. That is, unless Gainax has said outside the Anime that "Angels use their eyes to shoot zap beams" the way it confirmed that Lilith was the second Angel.--UrsusArctos 00:58, 25 August 2007 (EDT)

We see Eva-02 and Eva-01 do this kind of stuff, as well. Sure, we don't actually see their eyes at the time, but I'm pretty sure they don't have anything else down there that could have been responsible for the glowy-explody business.

In my opinion, you're making certain aspects of this harder than they should actually be. --Reichu 01:09, 25 August 2007 (EDT)

I give up. I wish we got to see an Eva X-blast an Angel...here's to Rebuild.--UrsusArctos 01:50, 25 August 2007 (EDT)

Well, I will keep an eye out for something "citable" on the eye stuff, just for you. (wink) --Reichu 01:51, 25 August 2007 (EDT)

Angels shoot lasers from their eyes. They are giant monsters that shoot lasers from their eyes. How hard is this to understand? I mean its' not without precedent, as it were. "you're making certain aspects of this harder than they should be". --V 15:56, 25 August 2007 (EDT)

The X-blasts are a little strange, since the eyes do this halation-thing and then a giant explosion tends to just magically appear a distance away. Alternatively, when Zeruel does the focused eye beam, we see the energy go directly from his eyes to the point of contact. Weird, huh?

How exactly DOES one trigger explosions with the eyes? --Reichu 16:12, 25 August 2007 (EDT)

Zeruel's Core

"[[the core's] not significantly bigger than Sachiel's or Shamshel's": Zeruel's core always struck me as being "XBOX HUEG", proportionately. This is evident enough by comparing its circumference to Sachiel's or Shamshel's (using the Evas as a reference point), and then you factor in volume. Do I need to compile a series of images in order to get my observation back in? <_< --Reichu 20:51, 30 August 2007 (EDT)

Oh if you're using the Evas for proportion and have already measured it like that then nevermind; add it back in. --V 20:56, 30 August 2007 (EDT)

Well, I suppose I can double-check before I do... --Reichu 21:01, 30 August 2007 (EDT)

..."Spears"?

V wrote: "Zeruel can also straighten and stiffen the ends of its ribbon-arms so that they effectively form spears for stabbing with, as seen when it attacked the depowered Eva 01's exposed core." -- For some reason, "spears" and "stabbing" aren't the things that come to my mind from what Zeruel was doing... --Reichu 13:14, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

Then what would you say? they're sort of "spears" or something. --V 18:40, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

They're not being used to poke or impale. "Battering ram" is the best correlate that comes to mind. --Reichu 21:02, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

Yeah that brings up the question: Zeruel's arms are sharp enough to slice off Evangelion arms; why doesn't it simply slice through the core? Is the core "tougher" material? Or is it torturing Eva 01, on purpose, toying with it before the kill? I mean you'd think it could if it wanted to. Well we'll have to reword this battering-ram stuff though that does seem more fitting them spears.--V 22:14, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

Cores are actually pretty hard from the looks of things, but it looks like all cores are not the same strength. Sachiel's core cracked under a hammering from his own dismembered ribs and began to crack, Shamshel's took a while to go phut even after the knife had bored deep into it. I guess core strengths are like Evangelion sizes, the core can be hard or tough or brittle or however it appears as the situation demands. Zer's arms, no matter how many arms or heads or helmets they slice through, can't hurt that core. --UrsusArctos 07:24, 1 September 2007 (EDT)

I find myself leaning towards the idea that Zeruel was intentionally going for a "slow kill", myself. --Reichu 08:20, 1 September 2007 (EDT)

At the least, I think they've established that cores are tougher-than-average parts of both Angels and Evas; though it looks like Zeruel is PO'd that Eva 01 was actually starting to gain the upper hand against it (after it pwned Eva 02 and Eva 00), and was going for the "slow kill" as a result. --V 09:21, 1 September 2007 (EDT)

Well, notice too that Zeruel was going for a kill (however slowly) in the first place; with the other two Evas, he didn't bother. Just disabled them and moved on.

Zeruel is decidedly one of the "subjects" for "insight into Angel psychology"; he gets a space whenever that T&A article happens. --Reichu 09:48, 1 September 2007 (EDT)

Sadistic Zeruel

Zeruel does appear to have a sadistic bent of some sort, because while most Angels just don't care about Lilin, Zer (Who is in the shaft that goes direct to Terminal Dogma) chooses to detour and blow up the bridge crew. Blasting away at the Tokyo-3 roof structure or Evas is nothing new, but he bashed in, looked about at all the little humans and prepared to blow them to kingdom come. That attack on Lilim isn't seen anywhere else, most Angels probably wouldn't care. While calling him a sadist in the encyclopedia wouldn't exactly be correct, we could say he has a pathological hatred for Lilim that other Angels do not display, and acts towards that end. --UrsusArctos 17:06, 9 December 2007 (PST)

"sadistic" might be a little advanced for him but I'm using it as best-fit; it's "sadistic" in the same sense as when a cat chases a mouse, and then the mouse scratches the cat really painfully, and the cat then takes its time ripping the mouse apart once it catches it. That's not really a complex "emotion" but is present in animals, as opposed to some Angels which just fight long enough to advance. --V 17:14, 9 December 2007 (PST)

Of course, this might be a subtle hint that by this point Adam is bonded to Gendo and not IN Terminal Dogma. --V 17:23, 9 December 2007 (PST)

I doubt it: Gendo wasn't in the room when Zer bashed in, remember? He was trying to start Eva-01! And he was about when Eva-01's arm got shot and he got splashed with thick, red blood...of course, neither of the combatants would have had time to notice that he was there. He'd have gone straight into the Eva cage if he'd been after Gendo.--UrsusArctos 17:34, 9 December 2007 (PST)

After I made my last post I went back to youtube to check and indeed, Gendo is in the Eva pens and not in Central Dogma at the time. --V 17:48, 9 December 2007 (PST)

Zeruel is the...

I'm looking for le mot juste and I'm thinking something like "Zeruel is the <<culmination/climax>> of Angels that focus on direct conventional combat" but that doesn't jive. I was going to ultimately go with "apex", possibly pinnacle (earlier I had used "paragon" but that really veers more towards "paradigm"). "Perfection"? Would be good, except implies that someone is actively designing the Angels......which extra-narrative, of course someone is, but not in the story...--V 20:42, 10 February 2008 (PST)

Too big, too big

I'd be damned if this isn't oversized, but I've no idea where to begin cutting this down to something neater and easier on the eyes.--UrsusArctos 21:42, 3 March 2008 (PST)

Ursus.....there is no such thing as "too big" if its actually saying something relevant. By that logic, the entire "Shinji Ikari" page could be argued to only really need to be a paragraph long. Why are you afraid of the article being long? Wasn't the entire point of having an "Evangelion encyclopedia guide" that "no one ever made a full guide to the series before, all we've got to go on are short blurbs, and wouldn't it be nice to have a thorough guide to the series for once?". If you are upset about the "wall of text" the obvious answer isn't "lets remove the text" but "insert subheaders and thumbnailed images to break up the flow of the text more". Case in point, if by your own admission you "have no idea what to cut out"....that's because there is nothing to cut out. I could see if you were arguing that "such and such a subsection is redundant" but each section of the article is saying something specific that no other part does. Are you simply scared of the wall of text? For months I've been holding up the Zeruel article as an example of the "perfect" article which all of the other ones should be aspiring to. Not only is there "nothing wrong" with it, it's the template for what everything else should be (thought of course, with more images)--V 23:09, 3 March 2008 (PST)

For once, V, I might be able to sneak in the details of Zeruel into a separate "production" section, and then trim whatever isn't necessary. The same will go for Sachi. --UrsusArctos 03:54, 4 March 2008 (PST)

This page looks fine to me, I don't see anything that irrelevant or redundant. --Ornette 14:57, 4 March 2008 (PST)