Talk:Third Impact

V, the reason I took out the link where "Egg" was is because the link to "Black Moon" is there earlier in the article. We don't need the link twice. --Eva Yojimbo 14:06, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

Unfortunate, but it's confusing to call it the "Egg" if we don't establish that the Black Moon and "Egg" are the same thing first. --V 19:03, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

The Black Moon link explains this. That seems like enough to me. --Eva Yojimbo 08:35, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

Third Impact vs. Instrumentality

Exactly where is the line to be drawn between Third Impact and Instrumentality (i.e., the Human Instrumentality Project)? A distinction is important, insofar as it determines what goes on the respectives pages... --Reichu 22:24, 8 August 2007 (EDT)

Third Impact should be the massive Anti-A.T. Field that reduces everyone to LCL; this happened. Instrumentality is the joining of all souls into one; this did not happen. So the distinction would be that Shinji stopped Instrumentality, but did not stop Third Impact. --thewayneiac Aug. 08, 2007 22:50 EDT.

Is it? I remember Maya going over a computer screen when Eva 01 and the hapies are forming the Sephiroth in the sky, and her saying that the conditions for Third Impact are right there. It's not just the generation of Lilith-Rei's Anti-A.T. Field, but the one generated by the flying Evas that starts it off, eye-like cloud formations and all. Lilith just takes over and finishes off what the Evas had started. --UrsusArctos 00:06, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

My take is thus: Third Impact begins with the MPE/Shogouki/ToL bit. They begin the initial stages of the process which is confirmed by Maya. However, GNR shows up and takes over control of the proceedings. Shinji wishes for death, and Third Impact resumes under the control of Lilith. Wayneiac, I disagree that Shinji stops Instrumentality, what he stops is a PERMANENT instrumentality. We very clearly see all the Earthly souls traveling into Lilith('s Egg), and the mind trip moment afterwards is very Instrumentality-ish. In fact, we literally see Shinji and Rei/Lilith in Instrumentality (when Shinji says "this is not right"). What happens is Shinji rejects this reality, and things "return" to the beginning. My view summed up: Third Impact beginning = MPE/Sho encounter/ritual. Third Impact true = Lilith Tanging everyone. Instrumentality = Everything after that until Shinji decides to end it. BTW, the opening statement is that "Third Impact is the culmination of the HIP project". While this is technically true, it sounds weird because Instrumentality is the true culmination of the project. Third Impact is what initiates it.--Eva Yojimbo 07:40, 18 August 2007 (EDT)

As I understand it, "Third Impact is the process by which Instrumentality is brought about". Third Impact "happened", and Instrumentality was brought about but then rejected. --V 12:48, 19 August 2007 (EDT)

Third Impact CAN bring about Instrumentality but it doesn't necessarily have to. For instance, the Angels' version of Third Impact would just result in Lilim's destruction. Essentially, Third Impact is mostly just the process in which the giant Anti A.T. Field tangs everyone (there's a bit more to it than that, but that's the ultimate goal). What happens after that is what makes all the difference. Lilith gathers all souls together in her (egg) and it's this union of souls that causes Instrumentality. Shinji rejects this state, and everything is kind of "reset" back to the beginning. --Eva Yojimbo 13:21, 19 August 2007 (EDT)

Ungainly Terminology

I request that "Rei/Adam/Lilith hybrid being" and anything along those lines be officially discontinued. It's not necessary to restate the constituent parts. Just use "conglomerate being" or something like that if saying "Lilith" (since, you know, nobody is capable of tacitly understanding that 3I Lilith is this giant thing that's absorbed stuff ;;p) is really all that bad. --Reichu 15:02, 19 August 2007 (EDT)

Well.... "Conglomerate being" makes me think of a being created out of the fusion of Wal and K-Mart, so I'll try to think of a better "simple" term and merely have it link to the Lilith article. How about, simply, "hybrid being"? --Eva Yojimbo 08:53, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

I won't officially use that as an article title, but I wanted to describe it as that at least once, because after the Nth time that someone called it "Rei/Lilith" I went "you know, Adam is in there too, and that's arguably more important". --V 13:36, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

How about the Lilith article includes a section describing what the Lilith of 3I is packed with, and we leave it at that? We only need to pull out "hybrid being" or whatever when we're talking about that one little scene were Adam actually does something.

Otherwise, I insist that we call Gendo the "Gendo/Adam hybrid being" for the couple of episodes that we know he is one. --Reichu 15:25, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

Now your Gendo example is just fuzzy logic. ;) I think the idea behind this is that Adam and Lilith are now one being controlling one body. I don't think we can separate the two as it seems they're very much working congruently the entire time. In fact, doesn't their voices overlap? With Gendo/Adam there's never anything to suggest Adam is there. "Hybrid being" is a concise term. Sure, "Lilith" is shorter, but I'm with V in that I don't like dismissing Adam's presence. --Eva Yojimbo 08:38, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

They refer to the thing in the show as "Lilith". I have not once seen GNR officially referenced as anything aside from "Lilith" or "Giant Rei".

We don't have to keep on restating "oh, this isn't Lilith, it's a hybrid being containing blah blah blah" over and over again. It ends up reading really poorly. I pull out my hair every time I see the "A/B/C/D Hybrid Being" in Some Article. --Reichu 08:47, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

I understand the frustration with "A/B/C/D" type terminology, which is why I propose that "hybrid being" is simple and concise. Sure it's referred to as "Lilith" in the film - likely for the same reason that they don't want to say "OMG! Rei/Lilith/Adam Hyper-Hybrid-Being-Thing!". But I don't think there's any logic in denying that it's more than just Lilith. Let's not forget the big deal regarding the "forbidden union of Adam and Lilith". I mean, I guess you have ultimate veto power here, but I think "hybrid being" sounds just fine, and I don't think anyone would object. --Eva Yojimbo 10:05, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

I for one prefer simply refering to it as Lilith. I don't remember it being called anything else before, unless we actually want to use the Geektionary and refer to it as GNR for the articles.--Szmitten 11:06, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

Taken to the forum. --Reichu 11:42, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

Angel Instrumentality

That sounds like a whole load of bull to me. Was it ever stated that "Returning to Adam" would ever resurrect the embryonic Adam? Even Kaworu, Adam reincarnated, was caught in that blunder, and just about any pre-Gaghiel angel would have no reason at all to go to Tokyo-3 according to this. (Gaghiel is an unusual exception, in that he stumbled upon the fleet that Adam was being smuggled in).

This is all totally, totally off. --UrsusArctos 23:44, 8 December 2007 (PST)

Well we talked about this a lot in a forum thread, and basically realized: 1-Humans don't have a means of normally achieving Instrumentality purely using Lilith, so Instrumentality doesn't seem like a natural life process for all beings, Lilim and Angel. 2-The Angels are never actually said to be trying to initiate Instrumentality 3-Adam nearly wiped out humanity entirely on his own without other Angels or Lilith when he was activated. As for the pre-Gaghiel Angels, they may be attracted to the Evangelions. This does require further work, I just realized that the initiate paradigm that we had that Angels are also trying to initiate Instrumentality is largely an assumption, and not fitting with all facts. --V 09:20, 9 December 2007 (PST)