Talk:Episode 24

The matter-of-fact assertion that Asuka cut her wrists in the bathtub scene ignores the fact that that idea is actually quite controversial. Some sort of softening weasel word like "apparent suicide attempt" is called for here. - Shin-seiki

Weasel word and overview in place, along with the bit from DC. Hope others are out there interested in lending a hand, there's a ton of stuff just waiting to be added here. --UrsusArctos 10:56, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

LOL ITS LILITH

Maybe someone should mention something about Kaworu thinking Lilith is Adam, since he never actually says that he thinks he's in front of Adam? And that people general assume he thinks this because he's talking about Adam while looking at Lilith, and that the RCB (or maybe it was the D&R programs) mentions this. --Ornette 01:59, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

Actually, I think some stuff (like those cards) says that Kaworu was the one who realizes that Lilith wasn't Adam, "or something to that effect." Lilith's card from that card game, for example.

A Source of Life Angel called/named 'progenitor' like Adam. Until being noticed by Nagisa Kaworu, NERV had misrepresented the giant crucified in Terminal Dogma as Adam, but it was actually Lilith. Ayanami Rei is a being with the soul of this Lilith and (a copy of) the body of Ikari Yui.

I couldn't replicate the results for Kaworu (actually, I couldn't figure out the Japanese at all), so ... whatever. We all know the card game is full of crap anyway. ;;p --Reichu 06:33, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

LOL THEIR TEH GHEY

Beyond mentioning the impression commonly received that Shinji and/or Kaworu are teh ghey, I wouldn't go much deeper into it. That's clutter for its own page. ...seriously. --Reichu 12:48, 25 August 2007 (EDT)

POINTS

• "Kaworu's line to Rei about "being the same as him" implies that Rei is the vessel of Lilith's soul, just as Kaworu is the vessel for Adam's. This is proven as Rei deploys an A.T. Field in Central Dogma.": WELL IT COULD JUST MEAN THAT REI IS "ANGELIC" LOL
• "Whether or not Asuka attempted suicide is a matter of debate. Although ironically enough, this is upon remembering her own mother's successful suicide.": "Apparently after slitting her wrists" shouldn't even be in the synopsis -- axe. Have the notes mention the stuff about red streaks in the bathtub and speculation about wrist-cutting, but leave the rest for T&A.
• "Kaworu and Shinji lie down just like Asuka and Hikari did in the previous episode": "Just like"? The "two people lying down next to each other" scenes are a recurring them, and this particular one is, visually, much more like Kaji and Asuka on the deck of the ship. (Kaworu's pose is even the same as Kaji's.)
• "Kaworu and Shinji end up facing each other: they have succeeded in communicating with each other.": I wonder if even Shinji knows WTF Kaworu meant by "I BET I WAS BORN TO MEET YOU".
• "Whether or not Kaworu and Shinji have a homosexual attraction for each other is a matter of serious debate.": I'd phrase this differently. It's more a popular subject of fan speculation than really "serious debate", considering most of the people who think they're TEH GHEY are either immature males or yaoi fangirls.
• "The word "like" is probably closer to what Kaworu meant.": HOW DO YOU KNOW?
• "Kaworu places his hand on Shinji's the same way Misato placed her hand on his in the previous Episode.": Did Misato even manage to actually touch Shinji?
• "While the sexual intentions on Misato's part were plainly obvious": From all of the Misato/Shinji threads I've suffered through, it's apparently not as "obvious" as it should be.
• "Kaworu's gesture might merely have been a sign of friendliness rather than anything else.": Kaworu is too incomprehensible to even attempt to comprehend.

--Reichu 01:40, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

The only points I personally added is the first one with Rei being Lilith, and line about the irony with Asuka's mother's suicide. Do you want those to be fixed? I agree with what you said about M/S and K/S. --Sailor Star Dust 22:15, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

Maybe at this point a note about the different ways the Japanese language refers to "love" might be in order to explain, if they can, how "like" is closer to the intended meaning (actually, I've seen fans argue the *opposite* by citing Japanese language conventions, too). Or just scrap the entire thing and add a link to the TNA page Incisivis 13:59, 2 September 2007 (EDT)

Agreed that a point about this should be made, maybe a small note on Epi 24 and then a link to a TA page? Especially considering (Mini-Japanese Lesson!) how the word Kaworu used, "suki", DOES mean "like" as opposed to "love". Although the acutal word for (true) love "Ai" is usually only heard when a guy proposes, if at all (Aishiteru=I love you). The word "koi" is more commonly used for things, but that has more of a lighter feel to it, like romance as opposed to true love. Hope that makes sense. ^^; --Sailor Star Dust 20:28, 14 September 2007 (EDT)

QUESTION

I want to make a speculation on how Shinji's killing Kaworu relates to his rejection of Instrumentality (at least symbolically). Would it go on this page, or the separate "Theory and Analysis" page for this episode? It's only a couple sentences in length. Incisivis 13:59, 2 September 2007 (EDT)

First put things in the Analysis section of a relevant episodes where a topic arises (here, obviously Episode 24) and then it might get expanded from there. --V 18:03, 2 September 2007 (EDT)

Got it. Thank you. :D Incisivis 12:13, 3 September 2007 (EDT)

Sexual Intentions

Wayneiac: Misato trying to place her hand on Shinji's: I don't see how it was sexual unless you interpret her line of "Is he afraid of women?" to mean that. She says afterwards, "I'm sure he's lonely. Is he afraid of women? No, he's just afraid of affection in general." Then she says "I'm sorry" meaning she is regretful that she can't fill that role of guardian/parent to Shinji (this is echoed in ep. 24 when Misato sees that Shinji didn't returned home that night)She then tries to fill her lonliness by seeking out penpen instead of Shinji. So seems like her gesture was just to comfort rather than...what? Comfort by having sex with him or something? I didn't see anything sexual. Or maybe you're saying that Misato can only give comfort in a sexual way? Or do you mean that it was symbolically sexual? Even so, I don't see how you'd think that. Seems like above the validity of the statement "plainly sexual" was already addressed...

--Oedipusfoot 05:54, 26 April 2009 (PDT)

It was plainly sexual. Look at the position of the chair and Shinji's groin in that scene. Dead giveaway right there. And don't forget that old conversation with Ritsuko in Episode 02. The only way of comforting him she could think of was to put the moves on him. In EoE she says, "This is an adult kiss. We'll do all the rest later." My recollection of the second sentence isn't exact, but there's no doubt at all what "comforting" Shinji meant to her from the start.--UrsusArctos 06:26, 26 April 2009 (PDT)

I'm watching the episode right now, and I have no idea what you're talking about. Chair? Groin? And about the quote in 02: What? She was joking to Ritsuko that she wouldn't put the moves on him, and that's all she said/meant. I mean, I know Eva has a foundation in sexuality and puberty, but in this scene it's just not apparent. Especially since after she left Shinji's room Misato called to Penpen, saying "Okay, I just want anybody. I'm the one who's lonely." So like she says, she just wants the (non- sexual) comfort of anyone, including penpen (I don't think she's looking for comfort, had by sex, from a penguin), and she realizes this when penpen doesn't come to her. Also, there have been interpretations of Misato's kiss as being a rite, or like the opening of "the door to manhood." He is let into the sexual world of adults by Misato. He now has to face his decisions as a man would and make up his mind. How we're even talking about this is proof that something so controversial shouldn't be in a reference article.

--Oedipusfoot 06:41, 26 April 2009 (PDT)

Sorry for confusing you, the scene in question was from the previous episode, Episode 23. The point has been noted, and in fact, there's hardly any doubt or controversy about it.

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Episode_23#Analysis

Neither is there any doubt as to Misato's sex-fiend side. I think it'd be better if you discussed this point in the discussion forum (Since I'm rather tied up, I can barely give you a proper response at the moment, and there's plenty that could be talked about in Discussion).

Edit: Should this scene be further discussed in the wiki, it should go to the Episode 23 talk page, not here. --UrsusArctos 09:27, 26 April 2009 (PDT)