Reichu, sorry to nitpick, but my concern about Kaworu's Origin (same as on Talk:Adam#Origin_and_Discovery) also affects this page. "Seele apparently collected the embryonic Kaworu from the South Pole and salvaged Adam's soul into him" needs references or qualifiers IMHO. (I believe that it is possible that Seele just collected Adam's embryo and stuck it in a human body- not necessarily on the day of 2nd impact. I believe the DNA diving and physically fusing could be just relating to Adam going nuts. Happy to be proved wrong, though)
- As noted in the history, I will add the citations a little later. I was just hastily wiping out the weird stuff about human DNA making contact with Adam's soul or whatever it was (lolwut?). (BTW, you're forgetting to sign your comments an awful lot. It makes the Discussion pages disorienting.) --Reichu 03:07, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Cool, yeah my wording was a bit off with the DNA and Adam's soul --Nomis1242 22:00, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
Are we going to do anything with the possible Kaworu = Katsuragi Clone stuff? A link here to a T&A article? --thewayneiac 10:47 AM EDT. March 18, 2011
- Yeah, that would be a good addition. I reckon in the Origin sections.--Nomis1242 21:33, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
- Uh oh,,, Which "Katsuragi" are you referring to?
- Juicy as I find the Dr. Katsuragi stuff, the show does so absolutely nothing with the set-up it's more interesting as "what-if" than real speculation. Given your posting history, Wayne, I suspect you're referring to Misato, and... yeahhh. If we're gonna go there, I'd just as soon T&A not say anything about Kaworu's unknown donor at all. --Reichu 18:22, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- I was, in fact, refering to your Dr. K. clone theory, not my Misato clone theory. (I still firmly believe, however, that her presense there was abnormal and there must have been a sinister reason behind it.) --thewayneiac 10:23 PM EDT. March 19, 2011.
- Oh, well, that makes me feel a little better. :3 I could possibly put together a T&A page about the donor thing, but it would probably have to have "this is mostly for fun" disclaimers all over it. (And I guess it COULD address the other ideas that are floating around, just because they get so insane... Probably 80% of named characters who were alive in Sep. 2001 have been suggested at some point or another.)
- As for "sinister", I can't think of any good way to make "Misato was needed/used for the experiment" wash. The Yui/Shinji "take your child to work and traumatize them by making them watch a hideous human experiment" parallel is straightforward enough; all you have to do is make up a motivation for Dr. K. (We can always duke this out on the forum again... >:D ) --Reichu 02:54, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
- This sounds like a good idea to me. BTW, I just dug up the old Kaworu/Katsuragi thread. A lot of the image links seem to be dead. Maybe you could fix them as part of this project. --thewayneiac 12:13 PM EDT. March 20, 2011
Hi the_wayneiac, I'd prefer that the Kaworu Agenda link goes back in Profile. The Agenda page talks about a lot more than just the relationship with Shinji. --Nomis1242
- I moved it because it seemed orphaned where it was. The profile has no info on Kaworu's agenda; the link just sits there with no text to justify its presence. The relationship with Seele section will be more about Seele's agenda than Kaworu's. The relationship with Shinji section seems to be the logical place for it. It explains his actions, and the provides a link for his motives. --thewayneiac 1:30 PM EDT. March 17 2011
- Sure, yeah it was orphaned out there. I still think that since the link covers more than the relationship with Shinji, so it should go in profile. If I come up with some better introductory text, are you happy if it gets moved back?--Nomis1242 22:00, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
- Sure, mention that he was sent by Seele but seems to have an agenda of his own, and the link should work fine there. --thewayneiac 8:45 PM EDT. March 17, 2011
- Thanks. Actually, I've changed my mind! I think it would fit better in As An Angel, at the end of the first paragraph. With a linking sentence saying as the angel of free will he has his own agenda. Ok? --Nomis1242 21:33, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
That works for me! --thewayneiac 10:20 AM. EDT. March 29, 2011
2011 Polishing Popular Articles
As per your call to arms, Reichu, I'll have a go at this one. I was thinking of fixing the structure and adding more about his origin. Is there anything major that is missing or needs fixing? Here's my proposed structure:
Relationships with other characters
-Relationship with Shinji
-Relationship with Seele
As an eva pilot
As an angel
In other media
-Rebuild of Evangelion
-Shinji Ikari Raising Project
How does this sound?--Nomis1242 08:12, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- Looks pretty good, though I'd rearrange things a little for the sake of streamlining. Maybe:
- Profile: /Origin; /As pilot; /As Angel
- We ditched the "Biology" section of Angel pages (actually collapsed it into their Profile section), but that text would be under Kaworu's "As an Angel"/"As Tabris" header anyway. --Reichu 16:04, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
- Restructuring done, hope it's ok. Next aim is to expand the tagged bits.--Nomis1242 08:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
- I don't really understand why "As a pilot" has been given so much significance. When I think about Kaworu "as a pilot", I just think about controllable synch rate and the stunt with Eva-02. A bunch of character-related stuff seems to be rather artificially/counterintuitively placed there -- i.e., it doesn't have anything to do with Kaworu's status as an Eva pilot -- and should probably get raised a level in the page's hierarchy. --Reichu
- Yeah I dumped all the "non-Angel" stuff there to try and fit the structure you suggested (maybe I misunderstood your streamlining suggestions). I agree it doesn't work very well, happy for it to be moved. --Nomis1242 07:01, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Some points/comments. (Please do not insert replies "into" the following text; quote the relevant parts instead.)
- This article needs to devour "Tabris".
- Kaworu is ... biologically no different from any other normal human: Does this take genome into account? Kaworu is arguably a hybrid entity (albeit one who seems to ignore virtually all of one parent's contributions...; we can always blame Seele).
- He appears to have been created during Second Impact due to a fusion of human genes with Adam's matter: The phrasing here bothers me. "Adam's matter". Almost naturally implies that the DNA fused with some random glob of Adam and Kaworu magically appeared. As a strong defender of the elegant "immaculate conception" line of thought, I wonder if there is something more "openly vague" that could be used.
- lacks a Core or even an S2 organ: I'm not sure there's much information here one way or the other.
- Unlike normal humans, he has the ability to levitate, perhaps as an A.T. Field related ability.: Considering the XBOX HUEG manifestation of the trademark ATF Blur the moment Kaworu steps off the umbilical bridge, I would say, "Not perhaps, Very Yes."
- Kaworu puppeted Eva 02: Is "puppeted" the best word? Also, "Eva 02" is inconsistent with site convention.
- only to discover that the giant crucified inside was not Adam, but Lilith: Some would argue that Kaworu already knew, but went down there anyway. LOL.
- The name "Nagisa" is a pun.: I'm not sure if the person who named Kaworu (not Anno) did it with punning in mind. It could, however, be decisively said that episode #24's title is a pun.
- There has been some confusion as to whether Kaworu is truly an actual "Angel": Is this "Angel" defined as "offspring of Adam"?
- Dr. Katsuragi himself has been speculated to be the donor, but there never has been any official statement to this effect.: I think canonical stuff either poses a question about who it is or says that the donor is unknown. Lamers.
--Reichu 18:12, 10 August 2007 (EDT)
LCL Plant Door
About how Kaworu opened the L.C.L. plant- I'm not sure he used the A.T. Field to open it, or else the whole door would have been wrecked before Shinji threw EVA-02 through it. Kaji opens a human-sized door with his I.D. Card, and the Eva pilots have similar cards. Kaworu could simply have used his to open it.(Notice how Kaworu's eyes glance to the right just before he enters)
Or, considering that he came in through the Eva-sized door, he probably pushed/pulled a lever, either with or without the A.T. Field (He might have used the Field because I doubt his physical strength is anything great). Either way, he didn't "bypass the locking mechanism" or anything so exotic- he'd have to physically damage the door to bypass it instead of just using it.
--UrsusArctos 21:14, 12 August 2007 (EDT)
- No ID card is involved. You can see the entire mechanism as it goes, completely untouched, from "locked" to "open". I don't see how else Kaworu could have accomplished this feat aside from utilizing some previously unseen form of ATF Voodoo.
- Kaworu enters through the same door Kaji and Misato use in 15. Compare the corridor's neon orange lines. --Reichu 22:15, 12 August 2007 (EDT)
Kaworu in Sadamoto's Manga
The way the information is written...It makes me cry tears of pain! ;_;
- His homosexual overtones, while debatable in the anime, are overly evident in the manga--while Shinji is staying at Kaworu's has a nightmare during which he hyperventilates, Kaworu kisses him in his sleep. When Shinji leaves his room he is sad that Shinji didn't even bother to say goodbye. Context, please? That didn't seem to be a kiss to me (He was trying to get Shinji to stop hyperventilating and Shinji took it the wrong way), and Kaworu's orientation or lack thereof doesn't need to be taken as "overtones". And anyway, you forgot about Kaworu wanting to know what "Shinji thinks of [him]". :P
- Sadamoto's portrayal of Kaworu is known by the moniker "EMK" or "Evil Manga Kaworu" by fans, many of whom have taken great umbrage with his kitten-killing. Should something like a fan-term even be mentioned on this page?
Thoughts on whether or not above should be changed? I'll fix these if somebody wants me to. --Sailor Star Dust 16:13, 22 October 2007 (PDT)
- Yes, I think it needs changing. Also, I think the note at the top--
- Write this as if Sadamoto's "Kaworu Nagisa" is a completely different person who just happens to have the same name as the other Kaworu, along with looking kinda similar. NPOV all the way; EMK-mindset will get us nowhere here.
- --can be removed. --AyrYntake 11:16 18 September 2008 (PST)
- I made a couple of removals. Could someone else rewrite the dubious "homosexual" part of it? --UrsusArctos 09:21, 19 September 2008 (PDT)
I expanded the Relationship with Seele section, but I'm not sure if it's enough to unflag it. --thewayneiac March 23, 2011 12:25 PM EDT.