User:Ran1/Dialogue Test Page
EoE: Anonymous NERV Girl is Dead
Shin-Sieki:
While pulling screen-caps for another topic, this cut in #26' caught my attention:
Now this cut is on screen for less than two seconds, and while I certainly recall seeing it, to the extent that I paid it any mind at all, it vaguely registered on my brain thus: female in NERV uniform + handgun = overhead shot of Maya, still being her useless-in-a-firefight self. But if you bother to pause and take a look at it, it's immediately apparent that this not Maya; for one thing, the red lighting (other cuts of the bridge in this part of the movie aren't under emergency lights), for another, the previous cut with Maya about a minute before shows her right where she's been since the shooting started (and where she stays in subsequent cuts): under the bridge console with her laptop:
So who is this, and what is going on here? When you take a close look, it's pretty grim:
She's slumped down in a pool of blood, with exit wounds on her back, and blood streaks running down the wall, and some spent rounds by her feet. In front of her, about ten feet away, what at first glance looked like a vague black blob turns out to be the body of a dead JSDF soldier, also surrounded by spent ammo and clips:
So I guess maybe the idea is something like this: he cornered her against the wall and shot her, but she was able to take him with her. I suppose the point of this cut is to illustrate why there's no more shooting from this point on in the movie: everyone's pretty much killed each other, leaving only Fuyutsuki and the others atop the command center alive.
So anyway, did anyone else notice this cut, and what actually was going on in it?
Interestingly, this is the third time in the movie that we've seen this 'slide down the wall, leave blood streak' deal; the first two times are a bit more obvious:
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Three of a kind? | ||
Normally, when I see the same sort of thing three times in NGE, I figure that Anno is trying to make some point or other. The (karmic?) connection of the first two instances is pretty apparent, but I wonder what Anno may have had in mind by repeating this blood/wall/slide/streak thing yet again here. It's apparent that the red lighting serves to obscure what's going on in this cut; if it were normally lit, there'd be two big, bright, red pools of blood in the shot that would stand out, and make it much more obvious what we're seeing.
The PRPD:
I don't think it has any major significance.
Thoughts on a possible in-universe explanation: Some of them could have simply been backed into a wall with no where else to turn having to face their inevitable fate.
Possible behind the scenes explanation: It could have been done just for the sake of doing it and being grim. What could it mean other than showing the ruthlessness of the JSSDF soldiers?
Ornette:
That everyone's dead, thus why there's no more gunfire in the background.
Sachi:
Normally, when I see the same sort of thing three times in NGE, I figure that Anno is trying to make some point or other. The (karmic?) connection of the first two instances is pretty apparent, but I wonder what Anno may have had in mind by repeating this blood/wall/slide/streak thing yet again here.
Does it mean to serve Anno's opinion of war? Two sides shooting at each other, but both end up dying, bringing to question the reasoning behind the shooting in the first place. "Why? What is the point?" Does Anno have an anti-war sentiment, believing that pointless fighting only leads to tragic results? After the entire series of Evangelion, the constant fighting between the two sides at conflict, we do get the tragic ending of Shinji and Asuka alone on the beach in the ruins that war left behind.
I may just be shooting in the dark here, but this was my initial impression when reading the topic post.
EDIT: We also get the streak of blood left on the Moon, if that holds any relation to these three shots.
Ran1:
Looking at it from an purely editing standpoint, the shot really represents for a nice juxtaposition between two opposing forces that weigh heavily on the show, with Fuyutsuki bringing up how the Egg of Lillith is the source of all human life, and then that cut of the two dead agents.
Also, I doubt this is very significant, but it appears as if the dead female NERV agent is holding a pistol. Aoba offers her a similar pistol here:
And she says that she can't shoot it, to which Aoba responds
Maya never ends up shooting the pistol, and judging by her mental state, she was in no condition to. All things considered, she might have taken out one or two troopers before she finally kept her head up for too long and be tagged by JSSDF soldier, or something to the affect. Her killing a soldier and then dying, like the red screencap, would be something that refutes the kill or be killed statement, because both died.
So, I suppose that the image serves an albiet oddly designed juxtaposition. We could chalk this one up to Anno being artsy, though, and I doubt it has really that much plot significance.
If one really wanted to show the extent of the conflict that had taken NERV, it would probably work better to show a quick montage of wide shots spelling out the killing that took place in NERV's lower levels, no?
ObsessiveMathsFreaks
My view of the cut is that it is part of a series of shots throughout EoE showing the grim effects of the battle.
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Episode 25' Cuts | |
This seems a reasonable assessment. However, there is no reason these two were necessarily the ones who killed each other. They may only be two dead soldier from opposite sides. Along these lines, and with regard to the following....
...I think the most similar cut to this red one is the following
Here again we have bodies of soldier from each side strewn about in the aftermath of the battle.
One of the big questions in EoE is actually how the bridge crew manage to seemingly be the only ones left alive in the command center. What exactly happened to all the SSDF forces and the Nerv personnel? While it seems a stretch to to say that essentially everyone is dead, these shots do seem to imply that this is indeed the case. However, I'm inclined to think that the attack has petered out over the interim and everyone is simply laying low. The JSSDF attack may also have stalled after Unit-02's or perhaps Unit-01's appearance.
One thing the layout of the cut brought to mind was that perhaps the Nerv operator had in fact shot herself after having been shot. See a higher resolution image, I don't think that's the case, but the way she is slumped over brings a suicide of some kind to mind.
Shin-Sieki:
And she says that she can't shoot it, to which Aoba responds
Episode 25' wrote:
Aoba: Idiot! It's kill or be killed!Good catch! I think you may very well be onto something here, because EoE on the whole is stuffed full of scenes and/or bits of dialog that serve as ironic pay-offs to earlier scenes; it seems like irony is Anno's favorite flavor of dramatic device. So this cut could very well be intended (by showing a NERV tech that superficially resembles Maya, but who went down fighting) to show that it's more like "kill and be killed" rather than "kill or be killed". And maybe the correlation with Misato killing the soldier and her own death scene applies similarly as well...
AuraTwilight:
I find it ironic that not only is Aoba wrong in that the above mystery girl kills AND is killed, but also that Maya outlives literally everyone else without firing the damn thing. I'm pretty sure that not only does she live to see the start of Instrumentality, but she's also the last person on the Bridge to be Complemented, right?
(I wonder if it has anything to do with Giant Naked Rei feeling her up on her way upright.)
Shin-Sieki:
Allow me to recall something I posted above:
As a result of ruminating for a while over this question of what sort of point was Anno trying to make here, a certain pattern relating to the fate of all the significant characters in the movie has come into focus, and it would seem that Anno did have some sort of agenda in play in EoE with regard to the issue of karma <-(edit: scratch that) and violence / non-violence. (I should credit Sachi and ran1 for comments above that were helpful in pointing the way to the conclusion I've reached.)
Simply put, the fate of each character in EoE seems to correlate with whether said character, in the course of the movie, personally killed, or tried to kill, another human being. If you look at the characters systematically, with that criterion in mind, you see that there is a very consistent correlation of good end / bad end vs violence / non-violence. To wit:
Misato:
Violence: Yes. Kills the soldiers that were about to execute Shinji.
Fate: Bad end. Ends up getting shot herself, then blown to bits.
Ritsuko:
Violence: Yes. Tries to kill everyone by blowing up NERV HQ.
Fate: Bad end. Shot by Gendo.
Asuka:
Violence: Yes (and how!). Kills perhaps hundreds of JSSDF soldiers, plus gruesome hand-to-hand combat with the Harpies.
Fate: Worst end. Speared thru eye, etc, etc... ends up as harpy-chow.
Rei 3:
Violence? No. Goes skinny-dipping, betrays Gendo, returns to her true self (Lilith).
Fate: Good end. "Welcome home"
What?! I AM happy! This is Me. Being. Happy. Okay?"
Shinji:
Violence? No. The poster-boy of non-violence, to the extent of just passively sitting there as the JSSDF soldiers are about to execute him.
Fate: Good End, but has to go through hell to get there
Makoto:
Violence? Yes. Uses gun to defend the bridge from the assaulting JSSDF soldiers (altho, with a pistol at that range, I doubt he could hit anything...)
Fate: Hmm... Is this actually a bad end? Altho he gets what ought to be good end (having his dream-girl Misato passionately throw herself at him), his reaction is confused, being at least as much one of fear as it is of joy.
^Does he look happy?
Shigeru:
Violence? Yes. Uses automatic assault weapon to defend the bridge (has better chance than Makoto did of actually hitting something). And he gets to be the one to utter this sentiment, re Maya's squeamishness about shooting other people: "Idiot! It's kill or be killed!"
Fate: Bad end. Ends up cowering under the console, goes out shrieking in terror.
Fuyutsuki:
Violence? No. Just stands around, droning on expositionally the whole time.
Fate: Good end. The script describes him when Yui appears as "filled with joy"
Maya:
Violence? No. In fact, she says outright that she can't shoot people.
Fate: Best end. Goes out in passionate, knee-humping, explosion of ecstasy.
Keel:
Violence. No. Just sits on his fat cyborg ass, chanting and praying.
Fate. Good end. Okay, now this one pisses me off. Tho he gives the order that results in the cruel and violent deaths of thousands of people, apparently he gets a pass because he doesn't personally kill anyone.
Gendo:
Violence? Yes. Shoots Ritsuko.
Fate: Bad end. Gets chomped in half by Unit-01.
So... What do you think?
Ursus Arctos:
I think you're twisting things around quite a bit to fit the whole idea of karmic violence and non-violence. The fact that Keel, the single biggest cause of violence in the NGE universe (one of the people who instigated 2I, no less!) goes out the way he wanted to shows that karma has broken down. Besides, I fail to see how Ritsuko being shot by Gendo is any worse than being turned to tang.
Shin-Sieki
Note that I'm dealing strictly with what the character do or not do within the course of the movie. And besides, I think your being naive to imagine that conventional morality has anything to do with Third Impact and the fate of the characters. Don't even think of it as karma, if you're hung up on that; the matter of "did he or she personally try to kill anyone" is the main principal at work here.
I don't get what you mean, but remember also that Gendo says something to fuck with her head just before he shoots her. I still say bad end.
Xard: Shin-Seiki's theory goes beyond limits of credibility IMO
Ran1: I think the karma/non-volence theory has credibility because it is quite obvious that Keel (and the rest of SEELE) rests outside the karmic structure. They are essentially the prime movers behind 2I and 3I, which makes them the ultimate cause of any human interactions that are karmic. If I'm not mistaken, there are Hindus priests who through living a certain way can break free of the karma cycle, no? SEELE could be like those priests, independent of the karmic structure.
And Makoto looks bewildered in that shot. Sure he sees "Misato", but he knows the actual Misato went down to rescue Shinji. He's more surrendering to an illusion to anything else, and I doubt he's thrilled about it.
ObsessiveMathsFreaks:
While I think EoE does have a a theme on the pointlessness of violence, I'm not sure that there is a karmic death message going about.
Of these cases, Misato's is actually the one which makes the least sense. Here we have someone who in their final hours tries desperately to save the world and the person they care about, selflessly throwing themselves into the line of fire to do so. Why would the director choose to mark out Misato's actions in defending Shinji as wrong? And why do so while allowing Keel off so lightly.
The opposing cases of Hyuuga and Aoba also bring this viewpoint into question. Certainly, nether is more or less culpable than the other violence wise. Personally, I think the three cases of the Bridge crew are to demonstrate the gamut of reactions and emotions that would be felt by the victims of complementation. Some are frightened, some are ambivalent, and some are overjoyed upon encountering their transition guides.
There is simply a lot of random violence and death in EoE; and karma has little to do with it. Consider the fate of the JSSDF soldier who paused on the road to help his comrade. (click for larger images)
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Epsiode 25' Cuts | |
Crushed carelessly underfoot by an Eva supposedly on his own side. No sense, no karma, just another random death. EoE is filled with these moments, and I think that even the original thread image falls into this category. The audience is subjected an orgy of senseless and pointless violence in the Grand Guignol of the End of Evangelion. Unsurprisingly, even the main characters do not escape.
EoE is not about people getting their just desserts. It's about the narrative tensions finally squeezing the characters so tightly that they eventually pop right open and explode into orange goo. After that, the healing can begin.
NemZ:
I think that the karmic death idea isn't quite correct. Instead, I offer this:
1) Asuka, Misato and Ritsuko die the way they do because of the insurmountable forces they choose to confront, not because of some sort of authorial fiat against violence.
2) Everyone who we see Rei taking out of the game, whether in pleasure, fear, or somewhere in between based upon how they judge THEMSELVES. Anything they see or feel before the end is their own rationalizing of their fate, not something Rei chooses.
3) Extras die purely for the sake of tension and storytelling. They have no karmic value because as far as the audience is concerned, they aren't really people.
UrsusArctos:
Okay, got your point. Could what happened with Shinji getting a lousy return to the real world post-3I have something to do with trying to strangle Asuka during pre-instrumentality? He even repeats the same action on the beach!
I think Ritsuko would have met the same fate as Aoba, since all love for Gendo had turned to hatred and there really wasn't anyone she could trust. I have to hand it over to you with the silent line - that sentence was meant to hurt her even more than the bullet did.
Ran1:
Your argument was solid, in regard to 1 and 3, and I was about to say so in regard to number 2, but there appears to be a catch-- or at least a characterization in need of clarification:
NemZ
He's a cynical nihilist bastard who likely views the world as just a collection of trivial facts rushing headlong into the future without purpose. Being swarmed by a seemingly endless flood of Rei who want to toss him into oblivion, against which he has no hope or defense, seems in keeping with that view.
ObsessiveMathsFreaks
I would disagree. I think they hold meaning in their meaninglessness. They are example of how senseless death can be.
In my opinion, the primary purpose of the case of Aoba's is to show how some people will always reject complementation and no transition guide can amend that . As I said above, his case is part of the spectrum of emotion that would be felt by those brought into complementation.
AgentKoopa
I think this is reading too far into the matter. IMO the shot of the dead NERV lady and the JSSDF soldier was just to set the apocalyptic mood. I don't think our heroes are the only ones left alive; Central Dogma is a big place and the bakelite would undoubtedly keep back the soldiers for a while. As well, it's fitting that Keel gets to melt with a smile on his face, seeing as this is the grand fulfillment of all of his plans. Gendo gets chomped because of his personal demons, not because of his violence. Ritsuko gets shot because Gendo doesn't want her blowing up the place, Aoba is just too lonely too see anything but a cloud of Reis and is too horrified by what he knows will happen to go out happily, Makoto is just more willing to go along with it, and Maya is almost in a breakdown when Rei/Ritsuko comes for her.
I think the form Rei takes at the end is meant to be more about the character themselves than about what their last actions were.
Miche
Going back to the original post, the image can be interpreted that the woman is still alive, if potentially fatally wounded. I wonder if this is some kind of (small) precursor to the decision Shinji has to make in the 2nd half of EoE; that is to remove oneself from suffering. In the case of the NERV woman, to turn the gun on herself rather than witness more tragedy and ugliness, whether from the JSSDF soldiers, or even things that she would have to do to survive herself (i.e. kill others). One of the first things I noticed about the image was the manner in which she is holding the gun: it's in her hands, but she isn't gripping it in an aggressive manner, ready for action in an offensive sense. It's almost gentle and contemplative.
I don't know, I could be reaching hard with this, but it's a different perspective I think to what has been mentioned thus far (which has been very interesting, of course).
Crosses [ANF]
Shin-seiki:
Actually, what the crosses represent is something I've never been able to figure out; they pop up as everyone gets liquified, but then they rise up into space at the end. It probably means something, but what?
I've read somewhere that the cross has various meaning in Eastern cultures and religion unrelated to the Christian connotation of sacrifice and resurrection. Of course, Misato's cross means sacrifice (her father gives it to her, and she gives it to Shinji), tho when we see her cross in Ep.26'(I need you), I very much want to attatch the meaning of resurrection to it...
Dr. Nick:
This is easy. Just place yourselves into the position of a normal wood-eyed Bruckheimer-fan teen-idiot: "Oooh, pyrotechnics! c00l!" I don't think there's anything deeper involved. :smokin:
MDWigs:
Ah my mistake. In that scene those crosses represent the souls of all of humanity. As for why they used crosses and not something else, well the creators thought crosses "looked cool".
@Sharp-kun:
Aren't the souls the red speheres though?
They are both. As Lilith's anti-AT Field is deployed, and sweeps across the globe, you see all these crosses appear and float up into the sky. You also see lots of little red dots a number of times representing souls. You also see a whole lot of Rei's swimming around at one point (which some take as representations of souls as well).
Sharp-kun:
You don't. The crosses pop up, but stay on the earth until the end, the red dots go to Lilith. If the crosses were souls, surely they would rise up as well, which they don't until after Lilith's death.
MDWigs:
Sharp-kun:
You don't. The crosses pop up, but stay on the earth until the end, the red dots go to Lilith. If the crosses were souls, surely they would rise up as well, which they don't until after Lilith's death.
You do actually. Check out the scene 1 hour, 21 mins and 15 seconds into the flim (I'm too lazy to make screencaptures and you need to see them rising anyway). The MP Evas fall to Earth and the crosses rise up from it. Yes this is after Lilith's death, but fits in with what they represent. I didn't mean to imply in my previous post that they float up straight away, there should have been "later" in there somewhere. Note I am not suggesting the red dots are not souls, just that crosses and the red dots (and the swimming Rei's for that matter) all represent different aspects of the souls of humanity (or maybe different types, I haven't decided yet).
tbozfan:
That makes no sense. Why would some go to the sky and some go to the sea?
Why would some go to Lilith initially and some rise up after she is dead? The crosses and the dots both appear as Lilith's anti-AT Field sweeps across the globe. There are far more dots than crosses though, and it is the dots that are drawn to Lilith, not the crosses, they are only released when the false lances are destroyed and the MP Evas fall to earth. I've got my own ideas about what each represent, but I think its clear they are both caused by the loss of an AT Field, which is know to release the soul.
Shin-seiki:
I agree that the crosses are somehow produced as result of the Anti-AT Field, but I thought of them as an artifact of peoples' souls being released, not as the souls themselves. When EVA-01 wields the Lance to make the Copy Lances burst (which indicates the end of the Anti AT Field), the crosses rise up and float off...not sure what that means, other than that Shinji and Asuka won't have to contend with a world with crosses of light everywhere. It's interesting that you mention that the swarm of Reis swimming inside Lilith may be souls, that what I thought the first time I saw them, but I think they're just Reis. BTW, what's up with the Reis giggling all the time? The clones in the Reiquarium are giggling as Ritsuko shows them to Shinji and Misato, she's giggling as she appears to Hyuga, and the Rei-swarm in Lilith are giggling too. Rei by herself is very solemn, but when there is a bunch of her around, it's like she's on laughing gas. Very creepy!
MDWigs: Shin-seiki:
I agree that the crosses are somehow produced as result of the Anti-AT Field, but I thought of them as an artifact of peoples' souls being released, not as the souls themselves.
My biggest problem with this idea is that there isn't a cross for each dot. If you take the dot to represent a soul, then there isn't a cross artifact for each soul.
It's interesting that you mention that the swarm of Reis swimming inside Lilith may be souls, that what I thought the first time I saw them, but I think they're just Reis.
Well in the black moon at least, a Rei heralds each soul's release. I think that is significant.
BTW, what's up with the Reis giggling all the time? The clones in the Reiquarium are giggling as Ritsuko shows them to Shinji and Misato, she's giggling as she appears to Hyuga, and the Rei-swarm in Lilith are giggling too. Rei by herself is very solemn, but when there is a bunch of her around, it's like she's on laughing gas. Very creepy!
Hehe I have no idea. Maybe an effect Anno put in to enforce the idea that the multiple Rei's are different from the one current Rei (ie the single Rei containing Lilith's soul, or the single manifestation of Lilith's soul that talks to Shinji).
A Dialogue on Anno's Auteur qualities
Between Eva Yojimbo and Xard:
Xard
Anno really has crush on color of red, red and red. And all sorts of visual combinations of red and blue.
Jimbo
Have you heard my interpretation of red in NGE? I had a post somewhere on the IMDb NGE board that detailed it, but I bet it's been deleted by now. I really should've saved it as I probably won't remember it all!
Xard
No, I haven't. However, as it's standing (ie. no counterevidence) I don't think Red has any great symbolic value in NGE - Anno just really has crush on the colour. So I think it's just purely aesthetic choice (great one at that)
Jimbo
Not at all; The Red/Blue contrast comes to symbolize Shinji's choice between Asuka and Rei, Individualization VS collectivism, harsh reality VS false paradise, Infancy VS adulthood. If you take careful stock of when Red is featured prominently it's always used at a time when reality is at its harshest; In ep. 3 when Shinji goes berserk in the Eva, in ep. 4 when Shinji runs away from the swirling cities and the cacophonous cicadas, in ep. 7 with Misato inside JA, in EoE when 3I, Instrumentality, and its dissolution returns the Earth to its origin; the "Red Earth". Red is the harsh reality of life.
Red is also connected blood, which is further connected with LCL ("it smells like blood") which is the base substance of life. This creates a perfect contrast when in ep. 1 Shinji stands over Rei with blood on his hands. Rei is the symbol of the "mother" or "beginning", and blood/LCL is the basic building block of life - so "beginning" of Rei with "beginning" of life in Shinji's hands. This contrasts with EoE where Shinji stands over Asuka (the "significant other" opposed with "the mother") with semen in his hands; also a symbol for the origin of life, but also for sexual maturation and the ability to create future life. In these two bookended scenes Anno has succinctly summed up Shinji's conflict through imagery and symbolism (and also established the significance of hands).
But perhaps the most genius piece of red symbolism comes with the red streak across the moon associated with Rei, mothers, and womanhood. The density of this image is remarkable because of extensive establishment of these motifs. The red can be blood as in "Rei is dead". The red can represent death as in "the death of old paradigms". The red over the moon can represent the menstrual cycle suggesting "birth" (which is what metaphorically happens in the end of EoE). The "red" represents individualism, reality, adulthood, Asuka, etc. triumphing over their other halves that I listed above.
There's probably more that I'm forgetting, but red most certainly is not JUST an aesthetic choice. You'll find that this interpretation is backed up all throughout NGE and I've just limited the examples for brevity's sake. BTW, this is, AFAIK, never been fully explained on EvaGeeks; so if you want to post it there (and respectfully contribute it to me) I won't mind. Another Red example I forgot to mention was the Volcano in ep. 10. That's really a perfect example because that ep. has a very important thematic development scene with Shinji, Asuka, and Rei at the pool, where Shinji is watching Rei swimming and Asuka leans over Shinji suggestively and gives the whole "could my breast expand" speech. Rei, along with being associated with the moon, is also associated with water here; another symbol for "the beginning" (the series begins with shots of water and the first angel emerges from the water). So while Shinji is watching Rei swimming he's also being 'tempted' by the sexuality of Asuka, and it makes since that later in that episode both Shinji and Asuka go 'swimming' in a volcano. Another red is whenever the Magi go into critical mode a couple of times.
One interesting thing I forgot to mention about the blood symbolism is that it's both associated with the origin of life AND death AND rebirth. Life because it's a basic element of life and death because of the saying "The fear of blood creates fear for the flesh" rebirth because of that bit I was talking about in One More Final. The idea of death and life being one, of course, is echoed throughout NGE (The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth). This is further fortified by the concept that Instrumentality begins by returning humanity to LCL (associated with blood).
I'll try to think of more. When I watch NGE again I should go back and note every example I see. Most all of the motifs are tied together thematically; even much of the Christian symbolism which continually relates ideas of death, rebirth, and origins (The Cross, Genesis). But the hand/color motif is especially brilliantly utilized because both are developed individually and then combined to create a kind of "combined" symbol.
Xard
Okay, my main beefs are really simple:
What your view requires is early on made artistic choice regarding the Red/Blue schema. For example Asuka/Red and Rei/Blue being delibirate choices that represent the "harsh reality" and "false paradise".
However, this crucial thing never happened. Rei originally didn't even have blue hair and red eyes, those came purely out of commercial reasons for having to have characters, EVAs etc. colour coded (as much as Anno rebelled against commercial aspects in EVA, esp. with design of EVAs...) and thus Asuka and Rei contrasting happened to become kind of lucky accident.
It also requires extensive planning by Anno (in form of such artistic choices. E.g he'd know content of latter half of EVA and esp. EoE while writing very first eps) and this is demonstrably utterly false; NGEs storyline was born purely in steady progress. Anno had no idea how story would end when he started it.
Yet another aspect worth mentioning is that bulk of your examples, especially in early series, happens in cases of highly dramatic moments. Red is very agressive colour and it is very often used to such effect in films. For example the "WARNING" screams on walls are red too. This extends especially to your examples of ep 3, ep 7 and ep 10. There's no reason to suppose there's any deeper reason for colour choice there. For example Gunbuster uses similar colour schemas in similar dire situations without any kind of symbolic baggage attached. Because it is so dramatic and agressive colour.
Anno's crush on colour red can't be overestimated either. It really is his favourite colour as exemplified by "behind the scenes" liner notes regarding production of Kare Kano. When making DVD cover Anno wanted scarf in it to be more darker red because colour is more *dramatic* and reflects the more serious mood in current storypoint than more fluffy pink. And when choosing drapes for the studio itself Anno was asked if he had any preferences.
"Red"
Thus Ep 4's usage of red can also far more plausibly be applied to colour's dramatic qualities than any far reaching symbolism, especially in early series.
If theme of red/blue contrasting had been established so early on point would've been driven on far more powerfully in early series. Can you remember any scene in early series that provides the clear Blue symbolism?
Blue is more calmer, soothing colour. In Ep 3 after Eva's power has run off and dramatic fight ends colour scheme changes from red to blue. Trying to put in to that change high symbolism is obviously ridiculous. Shinji's just taken down his enemy and he is sobbing with Toji & Kensuke watching. How such scene would reflect "false paradise" or "collectivism" after "harsh reality" of previous seconds? Shinji's reality isn't any less harsh in that scene.
And if colour red would uniformly symbolize "harsh reality" how come in Ep 11 when Misato & Kaji get stuck in elevator colour scheme changes to red because its emergency if usage of red is so symbolic?
However, usage of red due to "emergency" is completely sensible and fits in line with Ep 3 and Ep 7 both respectively.
Now I do agree about hand symbolism, Rei's connection to water and moon, the intriguiness of Rei's "relationship" with blood and menstruality (just what exactly is menstrual blood coming out of Armisael in Ep 23 ment to symbolize? Subtle way to reinforce the point "this is not Rei" as Rei is "girl who never bleeds"?) etc. stuff and I think there's lots of meanings hidden in these things, but I can't help but think Shinji's spermy hand as symbolic for beginning and creation is more than a bit contrived.
Such quality is *positive* aspect, but scene itself is anything but.
First and foremost it is superflatism at its finest and shocking and devastating criticism of otaku "sexuality". Secondly it's there to be first of many slaps in face of audience End of Evangelion delivers - after all that movie largerly consists of series of betraying hopes of audience. Thirdly it's important from plot point of view. And lastly it reflects (like whole film) Anno's sick and disgusted feeling with everything.
With all those layers of meaning I have hard time to believe Anno put in *that* meaning too, as the whole thing is bit hokey as far as I can see. Where does this Rei symbolizing "beginning" stuff come anyway? "Bookmark Rei" is not enough.
But perhaps the most genius piece of red symbolism comes with the red streak across the moon associated with Rei, mothers, and womanhood. The density of this image is remarkable because of extensive establishment of these motifs. The red can be blood as in "Rei is dead". The red can represent death as in "the death of old paradigms". The red over the moon can represent the menstrual cycle suggesting "birth" (which is what metaphorically happens in the end of EoE).
Now THIS is very, very interesting stuff and I think there's A LOT stuff in whole Rei figure, water & moon and blood and how they all come together.
HOWEVER I still fail to see this whole picture of Red/Blue symbolism as plausible due to reasons listed above.
Another red is whenever the Magi go into critical mode a couple of times.
Yes, yet more reason to suppose aesthetic effect explanation for most of red usage in show.
and it makes since that later in that episode both Shinji and Asuka go 'swimming' in a volcano.
I'm sorry, but I fail to believe in so obviously light hearted episode thing that is DIRECTLY related to story arc of episode and humour contains any deep hidden meanings. Seriously.
One interesting thing I forgot to mention about the blood symbolism is that it's both associated with the origin of life AND death AND rebirth. Life because it's a basic element of life and death because of the saying "The fear of blood creates fear for the flesh" rebirth because of that bit I was talking about in One More Final. The idea of death and life being one, of course, is echoed throughout NGE (The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth). This is further fortified by the concept that Instrumentality begins by returning humanity to LCL (associated with blood).
More of the highly interesting stuff, but yet again apart from EoE the "harsh reality"/"false paradise" stuff is just, well, I don't see it.
Most all of the motifs are tied together thematically; even much of the Christian symbolism which continually relates ideas of death, rebirth, and origins (The Cross, Genesis)
oh right, here is one thing you never convinced me about. You seriously think cross shaped explosions that angles make are thematically and symbolically deeply interwoven to these themes of death and rebirth? *Seriously*? With *anything* starting from words of creators themselves debunkin such possibility? Not to forget one who get to blame or praise for judeochristian haberdashery is Sadamoto, not Anno, who never had anything to do with writing scripts?
Evangelion is chockful with motifs, symbolism and all sorts of hidden meanings, but that doesn't mean ANYTHING is symbolic. Sometimes cigar is just cigar and cross shaped explosion is just cross shaped explosion
Jimbo
What your view requires is early on made artistic choice regarding the Red/Blue schema… and thus Asuka and Rei contrasting happened to become kind of lucky accident.
Actually, that’s not necessary at all. All it requires is that somewhere along the way Anno realized this motif of dualism he had going on and decided to capitalize on it further. I’ve compared NGE with jazz often about how the two pick up a general beat or theme that’s come before and manages to play off them. Remember that Anno even said he wasn’t sure of exactly what he wanted to say until he read some psychology books during the series and then it clicked. Should we disregard all of that too because it wasn’t preconceived?
You say it requires extensive planning but that just isn’t so. Because he’s only dealing with contrasting motifs all he had to do was notice that he had been using it and decide to use it further. I can give a great example: I recently wrote a short epic poem, and while writing it I noticed about halfway through that I had inadvertently created two different motifs (combination of light, life, love, lost, and a combination of eyes, guise, haze, gaze); so I decided to do something interesting with the motif and combine them in the final lines.
If someone read the poem and noticed it they'd say I HAD to have preconceived it; but I didn’t, it just happened organically in the writing. That happens all the time. In fact, in editing I noticed other motifs I "accidentally" used. The conscious mind is no creative match for the unconscious one; seriously.
Yet another aspect worth mentioning is that bulk of your examples, especially in early series, happens in cases of highly dramatic moments. Red is very agressive colour and it is very often used to such effect in films.
The two (dramatic and thematic effect) aren’t mutually exclusive. It also goes right back to what I said above; Anno could have simply noticed this motif he had going and decide to work on it. I doubt when he used the word “Hope” for the password in ep. 7 he knew he’d come back to it in ep. 24 and EoE.
Thus Ep 4's usage of red can also far more plausibly be applied to colour's dramatic qualities than any far reaching symbolism, especially in early series.
The ep. 4 example extends my example further. There’s three elements in that specific scene:
-Cicadas -Red -Buildings
Cicadas are identified in that episode as a sign that the ecosystem is returning to the beginning. Red, as I’ve said, is symbolic of harsh reality. The buildings are, obviously, Shinji’s current situation. What he does is close his ears and try to run from ALL of these things which loom like a nightmare over him. Anno was clearly establishing Shinji’s “choice” very early on. He’s constantly framed in between two imposing figures, or against harsh colors. But the ep. 10 scene… I just don’t see how that can be refuted. There’s just no way that Anno establishes this very clear contrast between Asuka/Rei, swimming in water/volcano purely by accident.
Can you remember any scene in early series that provides the clear Blue symbolism?
Not off the top of my head. Again, it could be something that just came to Anno. But he clearly utilizes it later with Rei’s associations (water, sky, etc.) and to end EoTV which concludes in Instrumentality.
Oh, wait, I do remember an early example; the theme features the famous image of the blue water drop that ripples and fades to a red universe. This is even noted in the EvaGeeks commentary as the ‘beginning of the universe’ – again, beginning associated with “blue” becoming “red” life. This is also utilized during the birth imagery of a waving “blue” water turning “red” as Shinji’s “born”.
Blue is more calmer, soothing colour.
Precisely, just like collectivism, Instrumentality, and being back in the womb is more calm and soothing (comforting).
Trying to put in to that change high symbolism is obviously ridiculous.
I don’t think this is “high symbolism”, this is basic association. It’s not even particularly clever since these things naturally “match” with each other.
And if colour red would uniformly symbolize "harsh reality" how come in Ep 11 when Misato & Kaji get stuck in elevator colour scheme changes to red because its emergency if usage of red is so symbolic?
I don’t know when Anno noticed the consistent motif of dualism he has going on, and he obviously wasn’t rigorously formal in anything he did, but this doesn’t invalidate the theory. I remember when I used to talk about the significance of the religious symbolism and how it served to reinforce themes, elaborate on them, act as a consolidating factor; but I got flack because NGE obviously wasn’t a religious allegory and rejected so many concepts connected with its allusions. My point was that it didn’t have to have significance.
It always strikes me as odd that the fans so passionately try to reject these associations; it’s as if they can ward off the accusation of pretentiousness if all of this stuff is just there “to look cool”. Nobody trivializes these elements in literature; Shakespeare and Milton uses narrative devices that are no more/less clever and scholars don’t reject/ignore them. Anno is undoubtedly working in themes of dualism in NGE; everything from the narrative, to philosophy/psychology, visual devices, etc. reinforce this.
I mean, do you think it’s purely an accident that in choosing the color of Shinji’s Eva he chose purple; an extra-spectral color that can only be attained by combining blue and red? If I were to list EVERY example of portrayed dualism in every element there would be no way that someone could deny Anno, at some point, certainly had it in mind.
intriguiness of Rei's "relationship" with blood and menstruality (just what exactly is menstrual blood coming out of Armisael in Ep 23 ment to symbolize? Subtle way to reinforce the point "this is not Rei" as Rei is "girl who never bleeds"?) etc. stuff and I think there's lots of meanings hidden in these things,
Rei is inextricably connected with the triple mother goddess; Again, in portraying mothers as godlike Anno’s stressing the importance of his “beginning” theme. Life begins in the womb; and of course the sexuality/womb/gestation/birth motif is all over NGE too.
but I can't help but think Shinji's spermy hand as symbolic for beginning and creation is more than a bit contrived.
In isolation perhaps, but when juxtaposed against the identical hand in ep. 1 the themes perfectly come together. It’s not just “beginning and creation” but also of sexual maturation. Remember that even Reichu said that Shinji’s choice was “leaving MOTHER for the SIGNIFICANT OTHER”. This concisely explains whole “progression of life” motif and why it goes from Blood/Rei in ep. 1 to Semen/Asuka in EoE.
Think of it this way; Adolescence is the period in life where people are caught between childhood and adulthood; between the extremes of the beginning and maturation. The individualization process is one thing that causes such stress at this time; you’re stuck between two extremes. This is essentially the dilemma Shinji is faced with; returning to nothingness, to the mother, to the “non-existent” beginning or becoming an individual and embracing life and whatever hardships it offers.
This dual choice is reiterated in every aspect of the series over and over again in differing ways. I often wondered if Anno noticed this after reading whatever psychology books he had because Jung illustrated the same thing in various contexts including relating the story of Genesis as an allegory for the maturation of humanity. I can go into it if you care at all.
Such quality is *positive* aspect, but scene itself is anything but.
Is it positive? Anno never presents life romantically. If anything, he romanticizes the perfection of Instrumentality’s “death”. I don’t see either side of his dual theme portrayed as innately positive.
First and foremost it is superflatism at its finest and shocking and devastating criticism of otaku "sexuality". Secondly it's there to be first of many slaps in face of audience End of Evangelion delivers - after all that movie largerly consists of series of betraying hopes of audience. Thirdly it's important from plot point of view. And lastly it reflects (like whole film) Anno's sick and disgusted feeling with everything.
All true; also none of which excludes the other theory and its relation to its matching hand motif.
With all those layers of meaning I have hard time to believe Anno put in *that* meaning too,
He certainly had ep. 1 hand-shot in mind; what do you think the connection is between them?
Where does this Rei symbolizing "beginning" stuff come anyway?
Rei = Lilith = Mankind’s origin Rei = Yui = motherhood = every person’s beginning Rei is associated with the moon; womanhood, motherhood, menstrual cycle, BIRTH Rei is associated with the water; Origin of evolutionary life, origin of the first angel, first shot in the series. Rei Is associated with blood; LCL (basic element of Lilim), basic element of all life, and going back to the “birth” thing.
All of these things are coincidence? Granted, the blood element is a bit far-fetched; but the others are practically indisputable.
I'm sorry, but I fail to believe in so obviously light hearted episode thing that is DIRECTLY related to story arc of episode and humour contains any deep hidden meanings.
Dude, SERIOUSLY look at the scene with Shinji, Asuka, and Rei at the pool. Look at how Anno edits and frames that scene. If you buy into the Rei/Water/Beginning motif, then Shinji being tempted sexually with Asuka fits right in.
apart from EoE the "harsh reality"/"false paradise" stuff is just, well, I don't see it.
It’s possible he didn’t even notice it himself until very late on. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist and isn’t consistent.
You seriously think cross shaped explosions that angles make are thematically and symbolically deeply interwoven to these themes of death and rebirth?
I don’t know about the Angels, but that’s definitely what’s going on in EoE, the crucifixion, and Shinji’s “Selfish sacrifice”. To say that the cross doesn’t tie into the theme of death and rebirth is ludicrous.
With *anything* starting from words of creators themselves debunkin such possibility?
The famous quote which everyone points to said it had no RELIGIOUS significance; which, as Reichu said, she always interpreted as “having no meaning in ‘The Passion of the Christ’ sense”, but not no meaning at all.
Not to forget one who get to blame or praise for judeochristian haberdashery is Sadamoto, not Anno, who never had anything to do with writing scripts?
Errr, Anno has writing credit on every single episode.
Evangelion is chockful with motifs, symbolism and all sorts of hidden meanings, but that doesn't mean ANYTHING is symbolic. Sometimes cigar is just cigar and cross shaped explosion is just cross shaped explosion
Anything in isolation can be just that in isolation; when it’s paired with obvious echoes and repeated throughout, chances are it might have more significance.
Xard
I’ve compared NGE with jazz often about how the two pick up a general beat or theme that’s come before and manages to play off them. Remember that Anno even said he wasn’t sure of exactly what he wanted to say until he read some psychology books during the series and then it clicked. Should we disregard all of that too because it wasn’t preconceived?
Ahh, thank you. That jazz comparison is exactly what I've been searching for. Evangelion is so pure, so tranquil and so honest work due to its direct creating as if it was jam.
Teknokekko aka Jari Lehtinen aka big ol' anime otaku of Finland wrote in his Retro Exodus Harmageddon article (which he jokingly called the "definitive" Neon Genesis Evangelion article) that one of the REAL mysteries of EVA (as opposed to numerous pseudomysteries and meanings e.g Barons of Hell crap that circled through the internets) is *what was the book Anno read*. It was given to him by his friend, and other sources claim it was book about mental illnesses and other sources claim it was book on Jungian psychology.
It is true mystery. If book was Jung's one it would give much more validity and depth to various "Freudian" aspects in Evangelion (instead of being flashy "cool points" in show and overanalyzed and interprepted crap by fans that go "psychlogy = Freud"). After all there's a lot of similarities with Freud and Jung, but Jung's theorems are more mature, more developed and better backed. It would also give extra reasons for zooming in on Christian mythology et al you talk about.
It would also give huge amounts of backing for this Rei/Three Goddess stuff.
Actually, that’s not necessary at all. All it requires is that somewhere along the way Anno realized this motif of dualism he had going on and decided to capitalize on it further.
I admit it, you're right on this. Question that remains is whether such thing happened...
You say it requires extensive planning but that just isn’t so. Because he’s only dealing with contrasting motifs all he had to do was notice that he had been using it and decide to use it further. I can give a great example: I recently wrote a short epic poem, and while writing it I noticed about halfway through that I had inadvertently created two different motifs (combination of light, life, love, lost, and a combination of eyes, guise, haze, gaze); so I decided to do something interesting with the motif and combine them in the final lines.
If someone read the poem and noticed it they'd say I HAD to have preconceived it; but I didn’t, it just happened organically in the writing. That happens all the time. In fact, in editing I noticed other motifs I "accidentally" used. The conscious mind is no creative match for the unconscious one; seriously.
Yes, you don't have to tell this to me. ;) I was avid writer up to point when I ended up on thoght tracks that led to Art Wars thread.
I know this all very well and as I already admitted, I didn't think through. Somehow I didn't take in consideration subconscious roots that may be brought mindful or not.
The two (dramatic and thematic effect) aren’t mutually exclusive. It also goes right back to what I said above; Anno could have simply noticed this motif he had going and decide to work on it. I doubt when he used the word “Hope” for the password in ep. 7 he knew he’d come back to it in ep. 24 and EoE.
"Hope" in Ep 7 however is entirely different from "Hope" that's becoming focus in eps 25 & EoE. I don't see any reason to suspect Anno linked Hope mentioned in Ep 7 to SEELE's Hope. It's just a word in first instance. And in fact quite propably reference to some anime or scifi film.
Cicadas are identified in that episode as a sign that the ecosystem is returning to the beginning.
...huh? I just rewatched ep 4 (well, more liek half of it) but didn't notice anything like that.
Red, as I’ve said, is symbolic of harsh reality. The buildings are, obviously, Shinji’s current situation. What he does is close his ears and try to run from ALL of these things which loom like a nightmare over him. Anno was clearly establishing Shinji’s “choice” very early on. He’s constantly framed in between two imposing figures, or against harsh colors.
Hmm.
But the ep. 10 scene… I just don’t see how that can be refuted. There’s just no way that Anno establishes this very clear contrast between Asuka/Rei, swimming in water/volcano purely by accident.
The thing is I don't see any kind of contrast happening here. They're not swimming in volcano, they're at hot springs in end of Ep 10. Nor do we see Asuka actually swimming, heck, we don't see her at all while in hot spring. And Shinji is basically bathing.
I mean, no, I just don't see it at all.
Not off the top of my head [blue symbolism]. Again, it could be something that just came to Anno. But he clearly utilizes it later with Rei’s associations (water, sky, etc.) and to end EoTV which concludes in Instrumentality.
I've ment to make topic for whole moon, light and water thing. "Light and water, which makes up Rei's deep mentality" et al. What it exactly means? What Water and Light archetypically etc. symbolise? Transparency? Tranquility? Etc. etc.
More I think about these things (and thanks to this argument I have to add blood etc. to picture too) more intriguing it becomes.
However, EoTV's ending is as you know same as EoE's. Hell, it is bloody easy to pinpoint EoTV's "time of happening" in movie, namely the part in which Rei, Shinji and Kaworu are in LCL Sea and Shinji chooses harsh reality over Instrumentality's blissed state. Thus Shinji's act in EoTV could've had "Red earth" in final scene as that is what he chose to embrace. However, usage of blue is rationalized, as this is when Shinji is still in "blessed state" and Lilith hasn't yet physically died.
Not to mention blue is soothing, happy colour choice to mood of scene and it provides direct link to coinciding scene in EoE.
"Oh, wait, I do remember an early example; the theme features the famous image of the blue water drop that ripples and fades to a red universe. This is even noted in the EvaGeeks commentary as the ‘beginning of the universe’ – again, beginning associated with “blue” becoming “red” life. This is also utilized during the birth imagery of a waving “blue” water turning “red” as Shinji’s “born”. "
Hmm, you're right.
I don’t think this is “high symbolism”, this is basic association. It’s not even particularly clever since these things naturally “match” with each other.
My point :P
I remember when I used to talk about the significance of the religious symbolism and how it served to reinforce themes, elaborate on them, act as a consolidating factor; but I got flack because NGE obviously wasn’t a religious allegory and rejected so many concepts connected with its allusions. My point was that it didn’t have to have significance.
Uuhh... I'm very interested in all that you mention first and is subject I'd like to see more elaborating on (as you're not alone on this; hell, even Reichu agrees somewhat), but but... first you claim religious symbolism isn't meaningless and then say "it didn't have to have significance"? Bhuhh?
It always strikes me as odd that the fans so passionately try to reject these associations; it’s as if they can ward off the accusation of pretentiousness if all of this stuff is just there “to look cool”.
As for me it's case of witnessing way too many ridiculous interprepations, esp. those on religious symbolism et al that give very bad rap to show and its fans. It's the act of seeing stuff that actually isn't there. Something that should be firmly opposed.
Nobody trivializes these elements in literature; Shakespeare and Milton uses narrative devices that are no more/less clever and scholars don’t reject/ignore them.
Ahh, but did Milton use obscure references just because they were cool?
Anno is undoubtedly working in themes of dualism in NGE; everything from the narrative, to philosophy/psychology, visual devices, etc. reinforce this.
...just what kind of dualism are we talking about? Also, I never thought about EVA colour schemes, mainly because it reminds me of commentary of doom... :P
And I'd like moar portrayals of dualism, although at first I'd need to know what exactly you mean with dualism here
Rei is inextricably connected with the triple mother goddess; Again, in portraying mothers as godlike Anno’s stressing the importance of his “beginning” theme. Life begins in the womb; and of course the sexuality/womb/gestation/birth motif is all over NGE too.
Indeed. Though not in simple Freudian sense. Tripple Goddess stuff is very Jungian. If it's true.
In isolation perhaps, but when juxtaposed against the identical hand in ep. 1 the themes perfectly come together. It’s not just “beginning and creation” but also of sexual maturation. Remember that even Reichu said that Shinji’s choice was “leaving MOTHER for the SIGNIFICANT OTHER”. This concisely explains whole “progression of life” motif and why it goes from Blood/Rei in ep. 1 to Semen/Asuka in EoE.
Think of it this way; Adolescence is the period in life where people are caught between childhood and adulthood; between the extremes of the beginning and maturation. The individualization process is one thing that causes such stress at this time; you’re stuck between two extremes. This is essentially the dilemma Shinji is faced with; returning to nothingness, to the mother, to the “non-existent” beginning or becoming an individual and embracing life and whatever hardships it offers.
This dual choice is reiterated in every aspect of the series over and over again in differing ways. I often wondered if Anno noticed this after reading whatever psychology books he had because Jung illustrated the same thing in various contexts including relating the story of Genesis as an allegory for the maturation of humanity. I can go into it if you care at all.
...you've been reading Jung lately haven't you? =P
Where did Reichu say that?
And yes, of course I want to hear Jung's stuff. Jung is awesome.
Is it positive? Anno never presents life romantically. If anything, he romanticizes the perfection of Instrumentality’s “death”. I don’t see either side of his dual theme portrayed as innately positive.
Yet ultimately he deems it as false paradise. But it's true, Anno never ment Shinji made right choice in the end. It's up to viewer. Is world really worth it?
He certainly had ep. 1 hand-shot in mind; what do you think the connection is between them?
I don't know. I used to think Anno just had thing for hands and loved that particular shot. But that was before I personally noticed the whole hand motif thing
So, I don't know.
Rei = Lilith = Mankind’s origin Rei = Yui = motherhood = every person’s beginning
These I, of course, knew already. Rei's kind of Cosmic Mother figure to me
Rei is associated with the moon; womanhood, motherhood, menstrual cycle, BIRTH
This is true too. The whole menstrual cycle stuff deserves a lot of careful study. Lilith and Armisael-Rei have the thing obviously going on. And yet Rei does not. The exact meaning of this intrigues me, as I've said.
So I agree on those others, but "birth"? Apart from being mankind's progenitor and Yui's clone, I don't see anything else related to birth in her. Oh, Adam ends up in her womb. Right
Rei is associated with the water; Origin of evolutionary life, origin of the first angel, first shot in the series.
Hmm... I think this is bit stretching it, apart from evolution. First angel coming from sea and first shot being water seem to me coincidences. You have to remember Godzilla creeps tend to attack Japan from sea. And if opening scene features ravaging monster, it's quite natural that opening shot is shot from the that place aka sea.
Rei Is associated with blood; LCL (basic element of Lilim), basic element of all life, and going back to the “birth” thing.
Highly plausible. Though I need explanation on whole birth stuff
Dude, SERIOUSLY look at the scene with Shinji, Asuka, and Rei at the pool. Look at how Anno edits and frames that scene. If you buy into the Rei/Water/Beginning motif, then Shinji being tempted sexually with Asuka fits right in.
I have to admit I never realized just how iconically Rei this shot was
[URL=http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=reiwaterandpseudomoonst7.jpg][IMG]http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8467/reiwaterandpseudomoonst7.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://g.imageshack.us/img217/reiwaterandpseudomoonst7.jpg/1/][IMG]http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/reiwaterandpseudomoonst7.jpg/1/w720.png[/IMG][/URL]
However, I fear you have to spell it out like I was really frickin' stupid. The editing and framing...uhh, I see no support for your theory. All I see is how distinctive and different the two girls seem to Shinji. And of course there's sexual tension between Asuka and him, but there's no need for further explanations than character development and fanservice.
It’s possible he didn’t even notice it himself until very late on. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist and isn’t consistent.
Hmm... Now how one is to see difference between seeing what wants to see and what Anno intended here I wonder
I don’t know about the Angels, but that’s definitely what’s going on in EoE, the crucifixion, and Shinji’s “Selfish sacrifice”. To say that the cross doesn’t tie into the theme of death and rebirth is ludicrous.
I repeat my honest plea of pure curiosity and ask could you elaborate, please =)
The famous quote which everyone points to said it had no RELIGIOUS significance; which, as Reichu said, she always interpreted as “having no meaning in ‘The Passion of the Christ’ sense”, but not no meaning at all.
I reread them and yeah, you are right. So I'm very open to possibility of them having meaning. All I now need is accumudating evidence ;P
Errr, Anno has writing credit on every single episode.
Sorry, I said that clumsily. What I ment was that Sadamoto is one responsible for bringing judeochristian element to show (or then it was Tsurumaki, but I'd bet on Sadamoto)
And you're wrong. And strangely enough the only episode in whole show Anno didn't have (heavy) hand in writing the actual script is Ep 4. Surely it's based on his ideas and concept, but actual dialogue etc. are all courtesy of Akio Satsukawa. This is what platinum collection booklet says:
"In actuality, this episode was once omitted in terms of the series composition and it was planned that what is now Episode Five would come after Episode Three. But as production progressed, staff members voiced their opinion that perhaps there was a need to depict Shinji’s relationship with the people around him after Episode Three, and thus, this episode was made, greatly changing the contents from what had originally been conceived. Because of this, the script for this episode written after the script for Episode Five had already been finalized. This is the one and only episode of all the TV and movie episodes in which Director Anno did not have a direct hand in the plot and script."
Anything in isolation can be just that in isolation; when it’s paired with obvious echoes and repeated throughout, chances are it might have more significance.
Problem with Red/Blue symbolism is I haven't seen remotely enough echoing with the thing that can't be explained otherwise
Jimbo
other sources claim it was book on Jungian psychology.
Jung would be MY guess. I know that just from reading that Jung intro book I drew numerous parallels to NGE. I see Anno using Genesis in the same allegorical mode Jung read it in. I also see a lot of NGE in this Jung quote:
"All those who do not wish to deprive themselves of the great treasures that lie buried in the collective psyche (collective unconscious - the concept of the part of the psyche shared by everyone made up of instincts and intuitions) will strive by every means possible to maintain their newly won connection with the primal source of life. Identification would seem to be the shortest road to this, for the dissolution of the persona in the collective psyche positively invites one to wed oneself with the abyss and blot out all memory in its embrace. This piece of mysticism is innate in all better men as the 'longing for the mother,' the nostalgia for the source from which we came."
Question that remains is whether such thing happened...
Remember that I have the commentary’s backing on the blue=’origin of universe’ going to red=’life’; once you’ve got that, everything else falls into place.
"Hope" in Ep 7 however is entirely different from "Hope" that's becoming focus in eps 25 & EoE.
Hope is hope either way; again, the intention doesn’t necessarily have to be there, and hope certainly becomes a major motif towards the end that it’s interesting to go back and see Anno had the word at least in mind early on. Again, it’s just a coincidence that out of ALL the passwords to chose he picked hope?
I just rewatched ep 4 (well, more liek half of it) but didn't notice anything like that.
KENSUKE: I like it at night because those noisy cicadas don't chirp. Although I remember that it was pretty quiet when I was a kid, there've been more of them each year.
SHINJI: The ecosystem is returning to its former state. That's what Miss Misato said.
They're not swimming in volcano,
Asuka: “Hey Shinji!” Back-roll ENTRY!”
I mean, no, I just don't see it at all.
Blindy.
What it exactly means? What Water and Light archetypically etc. symbolise? Transparency? Tranquility? Etc. etc.
Light, I’m not sure, but water works into the whole womanhood/motherhood/beginning themes.
EoTV's ending is as you know same as EoE's.
Not quite. EoTV ends in Instrumentality (in a very BLUE world), and EoE ends in reality (in a very RED world). The endings are further contrasted by completely opposite tones; from surreal, almost fake happiness, to oppressive despair with just a hint of hope.
Hmm, you're right.
Get used to saying that and we’ll be fine.
My point
But it doesn’t make them insignificant. The genius behind NGE hardly lies in any ONE element; be it story, characters, themes, or any given symbolism, but in how Anno pulls all of these things together into a beautiful whole. I think people are missing out on a major element by trivializing the rich (even though it often is simple) symbolism.
I'm very interested in all that you mention first and is subject I'd like to see more elaborating on (as you're not alone on this; hell, even Reichu agrees somewhat), but but... first you claim religious symbolism isn't meaningless and then say "it didn't have to have significance"?
I meant it doesn’t have to have THAT kind of rigorously formal Christian significance. Most get confused because they can’t seem to understand how Christian symbolism can have any other meaning other than a Christian one. But I see that Anno sees it more as like a philosophy that, in parts, reinforce what he’s saying. I often use the cross as the most obvious symbol:
In EoE Shinji is crucified. This draws obvious parallels between him and the crucifixion of Jesus. But where part of the brilliance of the symbolism lies is in the difference. Jesus is a selfless savior; Shinji is a selfish executioner. This brings me to my own coined term of Shinji’s “Selfish Sacrifice” which relies on all senses of the two words:
Selfish sacrifice as in Shinji is giving up his ‘self’ to achieve Instrumentality. Selfish sacrifice as in Shinji is thinking only of himself while doing this. Selfish sacrifice as in Shinji is also sacrificing everyone else to get what he wants.
Sacrifice also refers to the ritualistic way in which it happens. And, of course, the resurrection is an obvious symbol of the cross. Further, the cross becomes a symbol for the burden that Shinji carries, and, in the case of Misato’s cross necklace the symbol for hope and selflessness that the ACTUAL cross is meant to symbolize.
Anno also uses the “God” concept in an interesting way; especially in its various applications. One I’ll quickly mention is in Rei and Lilith; which refers to the symbolic and literal mothers as “Gods”. This creates an interesting parallel between God as “all powerful creator of life” and Mother as “all powerful creator of life”; a theme which I’m not sure works if one doesn’t think of them as godlike.
Genesis is a bit more complex; so hopefully this is enough to chew on for now.
it's case of witnessing way too many ridiculous interprepations, esp. those on religious symbolism et al that give very bad rap to show and its fans.
It was understandable in the beginning when nobody had a clue WTF happened in the show. I think later as fans began to decode the complex and elusive narrative happenings the religious elements began to seem less important or even unimportant and an obstacle in figuring out what happened. What I think got lost in the transition was that fans (and they still do) get so wrapped up in what happened narratively that they forget to look at these elements in a thematic or formal matter; which is where the religious symbolism significance lies.
It's the act of seeing stuff that actually isn't there. Something that should be firmly opposed.
The symbolism is THERE; it’s just its meaning/significance that’s in dispute.
but did Milton use obscure references just because they were cool?
He used A LOT of references, especially mythological, but I think that was part of the scholastic curriculum then. And I still think the “we did it to be cool” thing is taken too far. Do you really think that Anno would mar what is a very personal expression by using something to such a degree just to be cool?
just what kind of dualism are we talking about?
Tough to say precisely since dualism can split just about anything up into two extremes; but all of his themes work in twos – many of which I’ve detailed over these last several PMs. It’s one reason I wonder if he didn’t read Jung which split up the psyche into unconsciousness and consciousness and said it was a primary reason why we do see things in two extremes.
I'd like moar portrayals of dualism, although at first I'd need to know what exactly you mean with dualism here
Well, we have Asuka/Rei, Sun/Moon (not as extensively developed, admittedly), Red/Blue, Life/Death, Reality/Instrumentality, Angels/Lilim, FoL/FoK… I’m sure I’m forgetting some.
you've been reading Jung lately haven't you?
It was actually a while ago; about a year and a half probably.
Where did Reichu say that?
Couldn’t tell you specifically; I know SSD liked the thought and repeated it often.
And yes, of course I want to hear Jung's stuff.
His reading of Genesis was that it was an allegory about man attaining consciousness; where we went from having base instincts, being merely part of a whole (with God), but once we obtained consciousness (FoK of Good and Evil) we were forced out of that paradise and forced to become individuals, separating us from that perfect origin. This is where I see a huge parallel within NGE; Instrumentality is a return back to that Eden/Paradise where we are one with god (In this case, Lilith; we literally go back to the womb), while all of the pain and suffering of being an individual isolated from that whole is portrayed in the characters and themes (Hedgehog’s Dilemma sums it up). The Angels present an interesting opposition because on first glance they would seem to represent that origin (especially with the “Fruit of Life” business) where they are essentially running on instincts. But as the series progresses the division between Angel and Lilim is blurred to great degrees. Further, there’s one important quote on this with Fuyu and Gendo talking about science (knowledge) being man’s power.
There’s more interesting Genesis interps that aren’t tied to Jung; take the parallel between being tempted by the FoK and in NGE being tempted by Adam’s FoL and the fallout that occurs from both.
I don't know. I used to think Anno just had thing for hands and loved that particular shot. But that was before I personally noticed the whole hand motif thing
There was a time I would’ve agreed with you, but since I started noticing all the dualism parallels the hand shots just fit right in. There’s another that corroborates the “life in the hand” motif and that’s the shot of Gendo’s hand with Adam’s embryo. Yet another are the palms of Lilith where the souls flow to. I should mention that the dual side of “life in the hands” is “death in the hand”; this is represented by the clenched fist that always acts as a symbol of death (ep. 1, ep. 18, EoE), and Shinji’s clenching/unclenching of his hands is, to me, representative of the choice; “Life and death are in our hands; they’re our choice”. Why do you think Anno ends the series with this duality of hands (Shinji’s choke VS Asuka’s caress)?
So I agree on those others, but "birth"? Apart from being mankind's progenitor and Yui's clone, I don't see anything else related to birth in her.
The menstrual cycle is related to birth. Rei is essentially Lilith so, by default, she gives birth in EoE. The Armisael stuff fits right into (notice how Zero practically gets pregnant?). If you really want to stretch you could say that the explosion “death” leads to the real Rei’s birth; if we are to believe that Rei III is Rei’s whole self.
First angel coming from sea and first shot being water seem to me coincidences.
Yes, but you think everything I mention is a coincidence practically. Sure, it’s a Godzilla reference, but we know that Anno associated LCL/Blood/Water with being back in the womb.
The editing and framing...uhh, I see no support for your theory.
Rei = Beginning/Water/Moon/mother: We see Shinji carefully watching her while she is associated with all these things (well, except motherhood, but he later flat-out says she reminds him of a mother). Asuka = Individuality/sexual maturity: We see Shinji then being tempted by her sexuality.
Again, this is the VERY choice Shinji faces throughout the series; return to the mother/beginning/death/false paradise, or become and individual, live in reality, grow up. I remember someone even posted a gif where Shinji is framed between Asuka and Rei (I don’t know from what ep.) where his eyes shift between them.
Ask yourself this Xard; How is Instrumentality initiated in EoE? What act CAUSES it to begin? Do you see any parallelism between that act and what I keep saying about the choice and how it relates to Rei and Asuka?
I’m beginning to think I need to go episode by episode and note EVERY instance where this dualistic theme pops up. It’s everywhere, and it all ties in. NGE is, if nothing else, and exercise on seeing just how many ways you can say the exact same thing. It’s like something out of Greek rhetoric.
how one is to see difference between seeing what wants to see and what Anno intended here I wonder
The distinction probably shouldn’t be clear; it’s what keeps discussion alive. I’ve always said NGE is like a puzzle of Rorschach; you spend your time putting the pieces together only to discover that it still requires personal interpretation.
I repeat my honest plea of pure curiosity and ask could you elaborate, please
I think I covered it above…
What I ment was that Sadamoto is one responsible for bringing judeochristian element to show
Possibly, but I still can’t help but find their choices to be extremely apt for the narrative and themes being expressed. Several of NGE’s greatest themes tie right into the religious elements chosen.
the only episode in whole show Anno didn't have (heavy) hand in writing the actual script is Ep 4.
Oh yes, forgot about that. Another one of those happy accidents, seeing as how it might be the best episode in the first half.
Problem with Red/Blue symbolism is I haven't seen remotely enough echoing with the thing that can't be explained otherwise
Looking to consistently “explain it otherwise” is just as bad as “looking to find significance in every detail”. I’ve worked 2 years on NGE trying to mediate between the two. Most of these links I didn’t actively hunt for; many just came to me either during subsequent viewings, discussions, or revelations of varying elements. If I wasn’t so lazy I do believe I could go through each ep. And put together an extremely extensive analysis of how all of this stuff I’ve mentioned ties together because, well, it all does.
Here’s something to try; go through Anno’s other works and tell me if you find his uses of Red/Blue tied to anything specific. In NGE, they always are, and they are consistent. I know it’s easy to ignore because, as you said, red is a passionate color we associate with severe things; anger, fire, love, etc. Blue is a tranquil color we associate with water, sky, etc. These things naturally fit without the symbolism; but Anno constantly ties them to certain things and certain characters. He uses them for the shift in the endings, he uses them to represent Rei and Asuka, who themselves represent Shinji’s choice. He ties them to the Evas, and makes Shinji’s Eva an amalgamation of them. He ties them to their natural elements and sees that the appropriate characters are associated with them. It is consistent and it is pervasive; this is what I can’t stress enough. Whether it was just meant to be a kind of dramatic reinforcement or not (I doubt Anno intellectualized a small fraction of what he did in NGE) it still fits with the dualism theme that ties everything together.
Xard
Jung would be MY guess. I know that just from reading that Jung intro book I drew numerous parallels to NGE. I see Anno using Genesis in the same allegorical mode Jung read it in. I also see a lot of NGE in this Jung quote:
Crap, that quote pretty much sealed it.
However, Anno HIMSELF mentioned it was "book on mental illneses". However those ain't mutually exclusive. Or who says Anno read only one book?
Remember that I have the commentary’s backing on the blue=’origin of universe’ going to red=’life’; once you’ve got that, everything else falls into place.
That may be. It certainly reinforces blue=origin of universe but I'm not so sure about red= life
All commentary says is "A red universe fades in from a black screen. The camera advances."
Hope is hope either way; again, the intention doesn’t necessarily have to be there, and hope certainly becomes a major motif towards the end that it’s interesting to go back and see Anno had the word at least in mind early on. Again, it’s just a coincidence that out of ALL the passwords to chose he picked hope?
Not coincidence. It shows JA guys weren't simply self important pricks, but they had good intentions for what they did.
KENSUKE: I like it at night because those noisy cicadas don't chirp. Although I remember that it was pretty quiet when I was a kid, there've been more of them each year.
SHINJI: The ecosystem is returning to its former state. That's what Miss Misato said.
...of course scene with Shinji & Kensuke happened to be one I didn't watch >_<
Asuka: “Hey Shinji!” Back-roll ENTRY!”
Oh, right... Btw, it wasn't backroll entry but some other move :P
but that still seems just like joke comment.
Light, I’m not sure, but water works into the whole womanhood/motherhood/beginning themes.
Yeah, water is quite clear but light...
Not quite. EoTV ends in Instrumentality (in a very BLUE world), and EoE ends in reality (in a very RED world). The endings are further contrasted by completely opposite tones; from surreal, almost fake happiness, to oppressive despair with just a hint of hope.
No, not really. In both endings Shinji chooses to live as individual and embrace the world and search for meaning. They're exactly same ending.
Now here's the twist: End of Evangelion has TWO endings. Or ending and ending-ending, or ending and epilogue.
EoTV fits EXACTLY to spot where Lilith dies, Eva-01 breaks out her eye and Shinji returns to reality (granted the decision is made in "instrumentality" state of course, and thus colour schema is blue. That and red colour wouldn't have worked considering the mood EoTV is aiming for)
One thing people who have problems seeing EoTV being basically same as EoE is the crucial title placard before Final scene.
It is
One More Final: I Need You
Movie could've ended with that shot of Eva-01 rising up to space with bazillion crosses. In fact it fades in black, music stops etc. just like if movie would end.
One More Final is, as its name state, one MORE final. It goes BEYOND EoTV. EoTV ends with Shinji embracing reality. Final Scene shows what has happened after that embrace.
Get used to saying that and we’ll be fine. []
pffft
I meant it doesn’t have to have THAT kind of rigorously formal Christian significance. Most get confused because they can’t seem to understand how Christian symbolism can have any other meaning other than a Christian one.
Ahh, way you said it was confusing... though I guessed that's what you ment
In EoE Shinji is crucified. This draws obvious parallels between him and the crucifixion of Jesus. But where part of the brilliance of the symbolism lies is in the difference. Jesus is a selfless savior; Shinji is a selfish executioner. This brings me to my own coined term of Shinji’s “Selfish Sacrifice” which relies on all senses of the two words:
Selfish sacrifice as in Shinji is giving up his ‘self’ to achieve Instrumentality. Selfish sacrifice as in Shinji is thinking only of himself while doing this. Selfish sacrifice as in Shinji is also sacrificing everyone else to get what he wants.
This is interesting and I'm certainly open to possibility.
Sacrifice also refers to the ritualistic way in which it happens. And, of course, the resurrection is an obvious symbol of the cross. Further, the cross becomes a symbol for the burden that Shinji carries, and, in the case of Misato’s cross necklace the symbol for hope and selflessness that the ACTUAL cross is meant to symbolize.
Yes, and I'd like to add it also symbolizes Misato herself, more specifically her "heroic" characteristics that kind of remained as Shinji's last impression of her.
Anno also uses the “God” concept in an interesting way; especially in its various applications. One I’ll quickly mention is in Rei and Lilith; which refers to the symbolic and literal mothers as “Gods”. This creates an interesting parallel between God as “all powerful creator of life” and Mother as “all powerful creator of life”; a theme which I’m not sure works if one doesn’t think of them as godlike.
Nice; but it is SoL's that are referred as Gods. And Rei/Lilith is SoL.
Is there actually any scene where Mother is referred as "all powerful creator of life" though?
Genesis is a bit more complex; so hopefully this is enough to chew on for now.
As you said, isolated event can happen by chance, but when it happens again and again... Shinji's crucifixion can be symbolic in way you mention, but it has chance of being just pointless religious references ;)
It was understandable in the beginning when nobody had a clue WTF happened in the show. I think later as fans began to decode the complex and elusive narrative happenings the religious elements began to seem less important or even unimportant and an obstacle in figuring out what happened. What I think got lost in the transition was that fans (and they still do) get so wrapped up in what happened narratively that they forget to look at these elements in a thematic or formal matter; which is where the religious symbolism significance lies.
Well... yeah. That's it.
The symbolism is THERE; it’s just its meaning/significance that’s in dispute.
And I was referring to meaning/meaningless thing instead of whether there is actual "symbolism". Obviously there is.
He used A LOT of references, especially mythological, but I think that was part of the scholastic curriculum then. And I still think the “we did it to be cool” thing is taken too far. Do you really think that Anno would mar what is a very personal expression by using something to such a degree just to be cool?
NGE was still TV anime. Anno rebelled in many ways from very early on, but he didn't go all auteuristic on our asses before his yet again happening mental breakdown halfway through the show and him "finally finding the words for what he wanted to say". Show's action arc was heavily influenced by audience response. "Hmm, they didn't like last ep, but maybe they'd like this kind of stuff more..." or "ha! They really loved that bit. Let's give em some more fanservice"
- fanservice being used in larger sense than it's often used in western world.
Tough to say precisely since dualism can split just about anything up into two extremes; but all of his themes work in twos – many of which I’ve detailed over these last several PMs. It’s one reason I wonder if he didn’t read Jung which split up the psyche into unconsciousness and consciousness and said it was a primary reason why we do see things in two extremes.
Ahh... when I hear word dualism I immeaditly think of philosophy of mind so...
Well, we have Asuka/Rei, Sun/Moon (not as extensively developed, admittedly), Red/Blue, Life/Death, Reality/Instrumentality, Angels/Lilim, FoL/FoK… I’m sure I’m forgetting some.
Ahh, ok.
It was actually a while ago; about a year and a half probably.
Heh. I first read Jung in fall and it was first time since Evangelion I felt someone spoke with absolute truth and clarity in voice about everything. Memories, Dreams and Reflections remain my all time favourite non-fiction book. It was brilliant.
I've also read his "basic introduction" book, Man and His Symbols, Answer to Job and lots of differing writings.
Brilliant guy.
His reading of Genesis was that it was an allegory about man attaining consciousness; where we went from having base instincts, being merely part of a whole (with God), but once we obtained consciousness (FoK of Good and Evil) we were forced out of that paradise and forced to become individuals, separating us from that perfect origin.
'am familiar with this :)
This is where I see a huge parallel within NGE; Instrumentality is a return back to that Eden/Paradise where we are one with god (In this case, Lilith; we literally go back to the womb), while all of the pain and suffering of being an individual isolated from that whole is portrayed in the characters and themes (Hedgehog’s Dilemma sums it up).
This is jackpot hit. Obvious one, but still jackpot due to Jung connection.
while all of the pain and suffering of being an individual isolated from that whole is portrayed in the characters and themes (Hedgehog’s Dilemma sums it up). The Angels present an interesting opposition because on first glance they would seem to represent that origin (especially with the “Fruit of Life” business) where they are essentially running on instincts. But as the series progresses the division between Angel and Lilim is blurred to great degrees. Further, there’s one important quote on this with Fuyu and Gendo talking about science (knowledge) being man’s power.
with Lilim/Angles being basically both same, Jung connection is lost for me...
There’s more interesting Genesis interps that aren’t tied to Jung; take the parallel between being tempted by the FoK and in NGE being tempted by Adam’s FoL and the fallout that occurs from both.
"Being tempted by Adam's FoL"? O_o
As far as I know only Yui wanted to munch S2 organ, and for very pragmatic reasons...
There was a time I would’ve agreed with you, but since I started noticing all the dualism parallels the hand shots just fit right in. There’s another that corroborates the “life in the hand” motif and that’s the shot of Gendo’s hand with Adam’s embryo. Yet another are the palms of Lilith where the souls flow to. I should mention that the dual side of “life in the hands” is “death in the hand”; this is represented by the clenched fist that always acts as a symbol of death (ep. 1, ep. 18, EoE), and Shinji’s clenching/unclenching of his hands is, to me, representative of the choice; “Life and death are in our hands; they’re our choice”.
Clenched hand also represents determination.
The menstrual cycle is related to birth. Rei is essentially Lilith so, by default, she gives birth in EoE. The Armisael stuff fits right into (notice how Zero practically gets pregnant?). If you really want to stretch you could say that the explosion “death” leads to the real Rei’s birth; if we are to believe that Rei III is Rei’s whole self.
I'd never noticed that in Ep 23... creepy
Uhh, what she gives birth in EoE
Rei = Beginning/Water/Moon/mother: We see Shinji carefully watching her while she is associated with all these things (well, except motherhood, but he later flat-out says she reminds him of a mother). Asuka = Individuality/sexual maturity: We see Shinji then being tempted by her sexuality.
'mm
Again, this is the VERY choice Shinji faces throughout the series; return to the mother/beginning/death/false paradise, or become and individual, live in reality, grow up. I remember someone even posted a gif where Shinji is framed between Asuka and Rei (I don’t know from what ep.) where his eyes shift between them.
That would be Ep 11 with Shinji trying to decide who would be more reliable leader :D
Ask yourself this Xard; How is Instrumentality initiated in EoE? What act CAUSES it to begin? Do you see any parallelism between that act and what I keep saying about the choice and how it relates to Rei and Asuka?
Simple answer: Rejection by Asuka. Of course that was just the last straw...
[] I’m beginning to think I need to go episode by episode and note EVERY instance where this dualistic theme pops up. It’s everywhere, and it all ties in. NGE is, if nothing else, and exercise on seeing just how many ways you can say the exact same thing. It’s like something out of Greek rhetoric.
hehe, maybe. I'm just extremely cynical.
The distinction probably shouldn’t be clear; it’s what keeps discussion alive. I’ve always said NGE is like a puzzle of Rorschach; you spend your time putting the pieces together only to discover that it still requires personal interpretation.
Yeah, I agree about that. However, what we're discussing here requires that Anno intented it.
Possibly, but I still can’t help but find their choices to be extremely apt for the narrative and themes being expressed. Several of NGE’s greatest themes tie right into the religious elements chosen.
Yeah, there's always possibility of Anno et al taking serious study on the matters.
After all, they *did* turn up with Tree of Sephiroth and whatnot. And then there's parallels between John the Babtist and Kaworu
Oh yes, forgot about that. Another one of those happy accidents, seeing as how it might be the best episode in the first half.
Well, Anno obviously *directed* it and it's said that Anno didn't have *direct hand* in writing the script. The vague idea of ep, Shinji running away, getting sort of resolution with Touji and Kensuke and Shinji not leaving were most likely cooked up in his mind. But actual script and specifics were written by Akio Satsukawa (who is one of the small shifting gang that contributed to NGE' scripts.).
I nowadays prefer Ep 2 over Ep 4, although Ep 4 was my favourite of early series for long time. (check some reasoning out: http://www.evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6102 [btw Ep 10 is now higher than Ep 13 :P )
Looking to consistently “explain it otherwise” is just as bad as “looking to find significance in every detail”. I’ve worked 2 years on NGE trying to mediate between the two. Most of these links I didn’t actively hunt for; many just came to me either during subsequent viewings, discussions, or revelations of varying elements. If I wasn’t so lazy I do believe I could go through each ep. And put together an extremely extensive analysis of how all of this stuff I’ve mentioned ties together because, well, it all does.
That would be awesome.
I fear I carry over from my studies on writings (from parapsychogists, skeptics, philosophers, enthusiasts etc. The body of literature I've consumed on matter is staggering.) on psi studies the extremely cynical, skeptic overtones that I maintain in order to get absolute, most reliable proof.
Here’s something to try; go through Anno’s other works and tell me if you find his uses of Red/Blue tied to anything specific.
Gunbuster; Apart from the dramatics, no Nadia; same NGE; ? Kare Kano: ? Love&Pop: no/? Shiki Jitsu: ?
Shiki Jitsu: Blue cars, guitar etc. and red shoes etc. hold symbolic and plot value a lot, but the *colours themselves*? I can't say.
In NGE, they always are, and they are consistent. I know it’s easy to ignore because, as you said, red is a passionate color we associate with severe things; anger, fire, love, etc. Blue is a tranquil color we associate with water, sky, etc. These things naturally fit without the symbolism; but Anno constantly ties them to certain things and certain characters. He uses them for the shift in the endings, he uses them to represent Rei and Asuka, who themselves represent Shinji’s choice. He ties them to their natural elements and sees that the appropriate characters are associated with them. It is consistent and it is pervasive; this is what I can’t stress enough. Whether it was just meant to be a kind of dramatic reinforcement or not (I doubt Anno intellectualized a small fraction of what he did in NGE) it still fits with the dualism theme that ties everything together.
Shift the ending is wrong word though... :P
I'm still undecided :D
Jimbo
Or who says Anno read only one book?
True too; did he just randomly pluck quotes and ideas from Freud and Kierkegaard too?
It certainly reinforces blue=origin of universe but I'm not so sure about red= life
Watch ep. 20; when Shinji is being reborn he also goes from "blue" in Sho's womb to "red" when he's born back into the real world.
but that still seems just like joke comment.
'Tis, but it also draws our mind back to swimming and that earlier scene.
Yeah, water is quite clear but light...
IIRC, Zuggy wrote something on this a while back. Can't remember the gist of any of it though.
In both endings Shinji chooses to live as individual and embrace the world and search for meaning. They're exactly same ending. Now here's the twist: End of Evangelion has TWO endings. Or ending and ending-ending, or ending and epilogue.
EoTV fits EXACTLY to spot where Lilith dies, Eva-01 breaks out her eye and Shinji returns to reality (granted the decision is made in "instrumentality" state of course, and thus colour schema is blue. That and red colour wouldn't have worked considering the mood EoTV is aiming for)
I more or less agree; my entire point was that the blue/red dichotomy is created again by the two endings (or ending and epilogue, if you want). The blue/Instrumentality/collective/Lilith ending of EoTV (where Shinji's choice, or even the existence of a choice, isn't made clear) is contrasted against the red/reality/individual/Asuka ending of EoE.
Yes, and I'd like to add it also symbolizes Misato herself, more specifically her "heroic" characteristics that kind of remained as Shinji's last impression of her.
Yes, and while in Instrumentality Shinji constantly returns to that cross symbol and, one could say, it practically becomes his memorial salvation.
Nice; but it is SoL's that are referred as Gods. And Rei/Lilith is SoL.
Yep; but so are the Evas and Angels at various points. I often tried to reconcile all the different applications; wondering at one point if they didn't represent omnipresence (ghostly Rei), omnipotence (Angels/SoL), and omniscience (Yui... kinda).
Is there actually any scene where Mother is referred as "all powerful creator of life" though?
No; but it's certainly implied. The strong motherhood theme can't be denied. Why make the SoL, essentially, mothers?
Shinji's crucifixion can be symbolic in way you mention, but it has chance of being just pointless religious references
I will say that if they chose religious symbols at random and for coolness they certainly picked ones that fit right into the themes they were going for.
Show's action arc was heavily influenced by audience response. "Hmm, they didn't like last ep, but maybe they'd like this kind of stuff more..." or "ha! They really loved that bit. Let's give em some more fanservice"
Another of my pet interpretations, one that I know most likely wasn't planned by Anno or anyone, is how the structure of the series' two halves seems to represent the persona and true self; first half is full of anime tradition, the superficial elements that your basic anime fan likes. It caters to all of the cliches people would be used to in such an anime and would want to see. The second half seems to go about deconstructing and subverting this entire persona facade; tearing past the 'outer' narrative walls to get to the 'true self' underneath - the true self being the themes and everything Anno wanted to express. So much so that by the end of the series we get a completely stripped down presentation with only the characters acting as our medium to Anno's self-expression and "true self".
Brilliant guy.
Absolutely. I almost feel as if science is advancing so fast with understanding how the brain works that people are looking at classic psychology as just another archaic philosophy; but I think Jung (and Freud, and others) hit on so many essential, abstract themes that even if their theories don't hold to precise science it still makes sense in a more, well, sensual aspect of how the minds' workings appear and seem to us.
This is jackpot hit. Obvious one, but still jackpot due to Jung connection.
Glad I'm finally getting someone on my side with this interpretation; it's been a struggle to get anyone to accept it.
with Lilim/Angles being basically both same, Jung connection is lost for me...
Nope, the connection is still there; the self is the sum of both consciousness and unconsciousness; FoL and FoK. Man is living in consciousness, denying their unconsciousness in NGE (or at least burying it). Angels appear to be running on instincts, not having consciousness. When the two connect (ep. 16, 22, 23, 24, and kinda 20) the Angels act as a gateway to the characters' unconsciousness; this happens forcefully to Shinji, Asuka, and Rei in 16/22/23, while passively to Shinji in 24. Likewise, the characters act as a gateway to the Angels' consciousness; perhaps allowing a voice to what they couldn't express before (this is especially true of Armisael who seems to discover itself through Rei).
Therefor, Angels and Lilim are the same coin separated into two halves.
"Being tempted by Adam's FoL"? O_o
It's not that far-out. Mankind, now living in isolation, wants Adam's FoL, being tempted to get it just like in Genesis. This goes back to two loose themes; the grass is always greener, and man's reach exceeds his grasp. In both they're punished and face a serious fallout.
As far as I know only Yui wanted to munch S2 organ, and for very pragmatic reasons...
I'm referring to the pre-2I Adam/S2 harvesting.
Clenched hand also represents determination.
That's the superficial interpretation, sure.
That would be Ep 11 with Shinji trying to decide who would be more reliable leader
Isolated narrative point/Larger narrative point.
He's trying to decide which (path) to follow.
Rejection by Asuka. Of course that was just the last straw...
The rejection comes through a choke; choke = death. If we accept that Asuka also is symbolic of individual life, then that's also precisely what Shinji is rejecting symbolically through her.
I'm just extremely cynical.
I think I'm starting to crack you though.
I nowadays prefer Ep 2 over Ep 4, although Ep 4 was my favourite of early series for long time. (check some reasoning out: http://www.evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6102 [btw Ep 10 is now higher than Ep 13
Very cool thread; I had planned a long time ago to make one like it, but I have great difficulty ranking the eps.; there's so many different reasons I love them.
Does ep. 10 now being higher have anything to do with me? I rather like ep. 13; reminds me of War Games.
That would be awesome.
It's an easier concept than my two other great NGE ambitions: A complete audio commentary (probably scripted), and a complete-as-possible NGE companion guide; probably in several volumes.
I'm still undecided
I'll win you yet, dammit!
Kubrick's use of red in 2001 is even more subtle; all we see is it with Hal's light and the "brain room". Kubrick essentially implies life/consciousness as well through this subtle association.
Xard
True too; did he just randomly pluck quotes and ideas from Freud and Kierkegaard too?
Actually... yeah
What I ment is that after picking up one psychology book he could've picked up more of them.
Watch ep. 20; when Shinji is being reborn he also goes from "blue" in Sho's womb to "red" when he's born back into the real world.
Yes, I know that, but I keep the option open that red means Shinji getting closer to the "core" out of which he detangs later.
'Tis, but it also draws our mind back to swimming and that earlier scene.
True, but for me it was always case of Asuka attention whoring. :P
IIRC, Zuggy wrote something on this a while back. Can't remember the gist of any of it though.
Too bad Zuggy's been banned again for some time now so it's not like I could ask :/
I more or less agree; my entire point was that the blue/red dichotomy is created again by the two endings (or ending and epilogue, if you want). The blue/Instrumentality/collective/Lilith ending of EoTV (where Shinji's choice, or even the existence of a choice, isn't made clear) is contrasted against the red/reality/individual/Asuka ending of EoE.
Yeah. Though IMO Shinji's choice is made very clear, esp. on subsequent viewings.
Yes, and while in Instrumentality Shinji constantly returns to that cross symbol and, one could say, it practically becomes his memorial salvation. []
"memorial salvation"?
Ever considered the last scene from point of cross's symbolism? Just as if scene wasn't bleak already, the fact Shinji has lost all hope during his time alone on the beach is driven forward in SYMBOLIC way too through the cross. Not only with rust on cross, or the fact it's Misato's "gravemark" (ergo Shinji doesn't believe she's coming back), or Shinji's shoe or his wild eyes etc.
If cross serves the same exact symbolic value (and it does) it has throughout the film up to this point nailing it to *grave* alone exemplifies whole feeling of scene and Shinji's state of mind.
Yep; but so are the Evas and Angels at various points. I often tried to reconcile all the different applications; wondering at one point if they didn't represent omnipresence (ghostly Rei), omnipotence (Angels/SoL), and omniscience (Yui... kinda).
When Eva-01 is finally compared to God is when it essentially has become one...
Kami is of course much looser definition than God.
No; but it's certainly implied. The strong motherhood theme can't be denied. Why make the SoL, essentially, mothers?
Indeed
I will say that if they chose religious symbols at random and for coolness they certainly picked ones that fit right into the themes they were going for.
I'm just rooting for more cases so this can't be dismissed as isolated case
Another of my pet interpretations, one that I know most likely wasn't planned by Anno or anyone, is how the structure of the series' two halves seems to represent the persona and true self; first half is full of anime tradition, the superficial elements that your basic anime fan likes. It caters to all of the cliches people would be used to in such an anime and would want to see. The second half seems to go about deconstructing and subverting this entire persona facade; tearing past the 'outer' narrative walls to get to the 'true self' underneath - the true self being the themes and everything Anno wanted to express. So much so that by the end of the series we get a completely stripped down presentation with only the characters acting as our medium to Anno's self-expression and "true self".
You're essentially right.
Nope, the connection is still there; the self is the sum of both consciousness and unconsciousness; FoL and FoK. Man is living in consciousness, denying their unconsciousness in NGE (or at least burying it). Angels appear to be running on instincts, not having consciousness. When the two connect (ep. 16, 22, 23, 24, and kinda 20) the Angels act as a gateway to the characters' unconsciousness; this happens forcefully to Shinji, Asuka, and Rei in 16/22/23, while passively to Shinji in 24. Likewise, the characters act as a gateway to the Angels' consciousness; perhaps allowing a voice to what they couldn't express before (this is especially true of Armisael who seems to discover itself through Rei).
Therefor, Angels and Lilim are the same coin separated into two halves.
Nice picture, but I do think angel's have consciousness, especially the latter ones.
It's not that far-out. Mankind, now living in isolation, wants Adam's FoL, being tempted to get it just like in Genesis. This goes back to two loose themes; the grass is always greener, and man's reach exceeds his grasp. In both they're punished and face a serious fallout.
Now we're reaching too far... Is there any indication SEELE *wanted* S2 out of Adam in Antarctica? Nopes
That's the superficial interpretation, sure.
There are some occasions where life/death dualism is hard to fit in
Isolated narrative point/Larger narrative point.
mayhap
The rejection comes through a choke; choke = death. If we accept that Asuka also is symbolic of individual life, then that's also precisely what Shinji is rejecting symbolically through her.
yeah
I think I'm starting to crack you though. []
heh, maybe
Jimbo
I keep the option open that red means Shinji getting closer to the "core" out of which he detangs later.
Cores and eyes also seem to be associated with life. There's at least a couple of times in the series where the two are highlighted together (think of glowing Adam).
True, but for me it was always case of Asuka attention whoring.
You've gotsta learn to look past the surface, mon ami.
Though IMO Shinji's choice is made very clear, esp. on subsequent viewings.
It's made clear he chose to make the world, but as for having a choice to leave and enter reality... it's not there.
"memorial salvation"?
Well, in real life the cross acts as a memorial symbol for salvation, and with Shinji it's almost the same thing as he keeps looking at it, probably remembering Misato, and decides to go back to reality.
Ever considered the last scene from point of cross's symbolism? Just as if scene wasn't bleak already, the fact Shinji has lost all hope during his time alone on the beach is driven forward in SYMBOLIC way too through the cross.
That's a good reading. I guess I always kinda intuited the same thing but never thought to put it to words.
I'm just rooting for more cases so this can't be dismissed as isolated case
Most of the most important links come through EoE; which nobody can denied is incredibly densely layered as it is. But they have been more loosely established during the series, but they just come together primarily in EoE. Why do you think everyone always goes right to Adam/Eve interp. at the end of EoE? It's certainly meant to evoke "The Beginning" and "Genesis", even if it practically ends there (which is where people get confused).
You're essentially right.
Yeah, but was it planned? I can't imagine it was.
Nice picture, but I do think angel's have consciousness, especially the latter ones.
We get a more fuller view of the later ones; perhaps thanks to their connection to Lilim and the combination of FoL/FoK. But it's hard to deny that the whole consciousness/unconsciousness connection seems to happen only through the combination.
Now we're reaching too far... Is there any indication SEELE *wanted* S2 out of Adam in Antarctica?
We know they wanted the power of Adam, which they did discover was the S2.
There are some occasions where life/death dualism is hard to fit in
Not when it comes to the hand motif.
Xard
Cores and eyes also seem to be associated with life. There's at least a couple of times in the series where the two are highlighted together (think of glowing Adam).
Cores: Well duh, that's how angels are killed :E
Eyes? Sounds interesting though I've never noticed it. Hope you have a lot better examples than Adam though...
You've gotsta learn to look past the surface, mon ami.
I'm good at that. However, there must be good *reason* for me starting to look pas the surface and that scene never (and still) doesn't appear to me being anything more than what it seemingly is.
It's made clear he chose to make the world, but as for having a choice to leave and enter reality... it's not there.
Yes it is and I can prove it with script if I have to!
Well, in real life the cross acts as a memorial symbol for salvation, and with Shinji it's almost the same thing as he keeps looking at it, probably remembering Misato, and decides to go back to reality.
Ahh. I didn't understand the term memorial salvation.
That's a good reading. I guess I always kinda intuited the same thing but never thought to put it to words. []
you're not the only one who can do that :E
Most of the most important links come through EoE; which nobody can denied is incredibly densely layered as it is. But they have been more loosely established during the series, but they just come together primarily in EoE. Why do you think everyone always goes right to Adam/Eve interp. at the end of EoE? It's certainly meant to evoke "The Beginning" and "Genesis", even if it practically ends there (which is where people get confused).
true dat
It's also propably notable that there's shot of fallen, broken electric posts in the final scene. They seem to represent civilization in Evangelion and human contact (this is reinforced by scene in Ep 8 of Kare Kano in which Arima describes feeling disconnected from others and shot accompanying his speech is that of electric or phone post with all wires severed), thus their destruction is part of "cleaning the table" for new civilization
Yeah, but was it planned? I can't imagine it was.
Partly, but not mostly.
We get a more fuller view of the later ones; perhaps thanks to their connection to Lilim and the combination of FoL/FoK. But it's hard to deny that the whole consciousness/unconsciousness connection seems to happen only through the combination.
what I tried to say "word of god" makes angels equivalent and parallel with humans; they both have minds. Besides, whole subconsciousness and reforging link to it theme seems nonexistent in NGE and I think trying to interprept eva in so Jungian framework is taking it too far.
We know they wanted the power of Adam, which they did discover was the S2.
They wanted power of Adam? Not really...
Not when it comes to the hand motif.
Shinji's hand at very end of Ep 26 (EoTV) comes to mind
Jimbo
Eyes? Sounds interesting though I've never noticed it. Hope you have a lot better examples than Adam though...
In ep. 1 when Sachi explodes I think both the core and eyes glow (or something like that). Eyes and hands are also associated; every Eva and Shinji, Asuka, and Rei all at one point in the series have their eyes and arms damaged; usually at the same time. I always interpreted that as "Damaged souls create damaging actions".
that scene never (and still) doesn't appear to me being anything more than what it seemingly is.
Blindy. How come I noticed it very early on? I think it's fairly obvious.
Yes it is and I can prove it with script if I have to!
Go right ahead.
They seem to represent civilization in Evangelion and human contact
Very interesting. IIRC, some of the early shots in NGE depict these elements of the city. In fact, when Sachi first makes his presence known we see the effect through the telephone poles/wires; subtly symbolic of civilization about to be shaken up?
Besides, whole subconsciousness and reforging link to it theme seems nonexistent in NGE and I think trying to interprept eva in so Jungian framework is taking it too far.
You can't run the entire series through the Jungian framework (or any framework) but I think that element fits perfectly. If you take the Jungian Genesis interp to fit into NGE it's hard to deny its link to the unconscious/conscious concept and how it relates to FoL/FoK and Angels/Lilim.
They wanted power of Adam? Not really...
Sure they did.
Man found God and
in their joy, tried to make Him theirs.
That's why there was divine retribution. That was fifteen years ago.
We know that Seele was researching Adam because they knew its power could help them achieve Instrumentality; so whether they were going after the S2 or something else, that was the basic plan.
Shinji's hand at very end of Ep 26 (EoTV) comes to mind
I'm not recalling that one.
Xard
In ep. 1 when Sachi explodes I think both the core and eyes glow (or something like that). Eyes and hands are also associated; every Eva and Shinji, Asuka, and Rei all at one point in the series have their eyes and arms damaged; usually at the same time. I always interpreted that as "Damaged souls create damaging actions".
I see. Though when was Shinji's eye damaged? You mean in fight against Sachiel?
Blindy. How come I noticed it very early on? I think it's fairly obvious.
...now I have to admit I've lost the track. Are we talking about Asuka "jumping" to volcano or Asuka in pool with Shinji?
Go right ahead.
I have the script bookmarked on other computer I can't use right now. I'll get back to it.
Very interesting. IIRC, some of the early shots in NGE depict these elements of the city. In fact, when Sachi first makes his presence known we see the effect through the telephone poles/wires; subtly symbolic of civilization about to be shaken up?
I think it actually symbolises civilization being in dire peril.
Now this interprepation is little bit shaky because Anno absolutely loves shooting those things (because, let's face it, they're visually gorgeous in their own way) and it is partially based on two non-NGE usages.
- In Serial Experiments Lain telephone wires and lines represent civilization indeed (and that show was influenced by Eva a lot) and it's not impossibility so they would do in Eva - it was used in this way in Ep 8 of Kare Kano which was Anno's subsequent show.
In latter half of series when this Shinji's connection with world is deteoriating and whole "impossibility of communication and true understanding between people" theme is becoming more and more forefront we start to see broken electric poles everywhere as the city is destroyed.
I think one could see link with shot of broken post and Shinji's worsening state just before he meets Kaworu. Then when Kaworu's death is echoed (subtly reinforcing that killing Kaworu was the ultimate reason and last straw that led Shinji to his failed suicide attempt) in first scene of End of Evangelion from where do we see "head" drop from? From electric pole
In One More Final the posts are worse than ever before during the series. Then there's also that little touch with Sachiel in ep 1...
If one is to stretch the thing a bit we can also bring the phone itself to larger metaphor about fall of human communication (and ultimately civilization). Phone is made essential part of representing Shinji's character and relationships to world already in Ep 3 with the "phone that doesn't ring".
Late in the series when Misato is starting to crumble down following Kaji's death "phone that doesn't ring" is prominently featured with her. Same applies to Asuka's breakdown in lesser extent, she is first time futively trying to get Kaji's attention through it in Ep 15 and (more importantly) in Ep 22 fails to communicate with him (for obvious reasons) while in trail station, yet another straw to this "phone that doesn't ring"/wires stuff. When Asuka talks with her stepmother a lenghty conversation in the same episode that too is ultimately revealed to be facadious and surface connection than anything real.
hmm... now that I look the bigger picture there might be something to it.
You can't run the entire series through the Jungian framework (or any framework) but I think that element fits perfectly. If you take the Jungian Genesis interp to fit into NGE it's hard to deny its link to the unconscious/conscious concept and how it relates to FoL/FoK and Angels/Lilim.
I'll think about it. But I don't think there is sufficient reasons for "dehumanizing" angels to subconscious beings entirely. There is this regression theme throughout Komm Süsser Tod though, esp. in original japanese lyrics
We know that Seele was researching Adam because they knew its power could help them achieve Instrumentality; so whether they were going after the S2 or something else, that was the basic plan.
That Ep 23 dialogue has always been troubling one in many ways... Anyway, you're right but there's no reason to think they were specifically after FoL/S2
I'm not recalling that one.
Watch the very last moments before "I'm on a BIG BLUE BALL" omedeto ending.
Jimbo
Though when was Shinji's eye damaged? You mean in fight against Sachiel?
Yeh.
...now I have to admit I've lost the track. Are we talking about Asuka "jumping" to volcano or Asuka in pool with Shinji?
Both. I know Asuka swimming in volcano has been pointed out on EvaGeeks before so I'm not alone with that interp.
I think it actually symbolises civilization being in dire peril... now that I look the bigger picture there might be something to it.
Wow... that's some good interpreting man! I definitely think you're on to something there.
But I don't think there is sufficient reasons for "dehumanizing" angels to subconscious beings entirely.
I don't think it necessarily dehumanizes them. Humans aren't any less human for suppressing their unconsciousness. But Armisael certainly seems to imply it couldn't express her feelings consciously until it connected to Rei.
Anyway, you're right but there's no reason to think they were specifically after FoL/S2
We'll never know really what they were after when "studying" Adam in Antarctica, but the dialogue in 21' does bring up the S2, and we do know Seele needed Adam's power.
Xard
Yeh.
Well, his eye wasn't *really* damaged though.
Both. I know Asuka swimming in volcano has been pointed out on EvaGeeks before so I'm not alone with that interp.
Wow... that's some good interpreting man! I definitely think you're on to something there.
Further mention: End of Evangelion's live action sequence has shots of fully functioning posts. Now this of course can easily fall under Anno's fashination with them but if we assume there is something going in here it bears mention.
NGE and esp. EoE heavily critizise anime and otakudom, and whole live action segment is postmodernist deconstruction of anime and very open, rather hostile, attack on audience.
Anime fans being unable to "real communication" > we see shots of *real world* where they should be living in instead of shallow escapism and where true connection might be found.
Consider sections's fully operating posts in this context
I don't think it necessarily dehumanizes them. Humans aren't any less human for suppressing their unconsciousness. But Armisael certainly seems to imply it couldn't express her feelings consciously until it connected to Rei.
But I don't agree about humans suppressing their unconsciousness in Evangelion, least of all in jungian sense. That's something I don't see NGE aiming at thematically.
"Jung emphasized the importance of balance and harmony. He cautioned that modern people rely too heavily on science and logic and would benefit from integrating spirituality and appreciation of unconscious realms. His overarching goal for the person, called individuation, was becoming whole (as opposed to moral or perfect) which involves a struggle to integrate and relate to one's larger unconscious shadow side (self) while still maintaining conscious autonomy (ego)."
not really on map is it?
But Armisael certainly seems to imply it couldn't express her feelings consciously until it connected to Rei.
However it was conscious being already - this is something we see in Eva. Evolution of angels. What start seemingly as random, instinctual monsters are revealed to be by series end humans just like us under "different guise".
We'll never know really what they were after when "studying" Adam in Antarctica, but the dialogue in 21' does bring up the S2, and we do know Seele needed Adam's power.
Yes, but not in the way they wanted it. 'twas S2 going crazy
Jimbo
Well, his eye wasn't *really* damaged though.
Which is a bit of an inconsistency seeing as how when Asuka's and Rei's Eva's got eye and arm damaged their eye and arm was damaged too; how did Shinji escape? Maybe he wasn't synced enough? He certainly remembers his arm being torn though.
NGE and esp. EoE heavily critizise anime and otakudom, and whole live action segment is postmodernist deconstruction of anime and very open, rather hostile, attack on audience.
Anime fans being unable to "real communication" > we see shots of *real world* where they should be living in instead of shallow escapism and where true connection might be found.
All very true; though I often wondered if Anno's indictment of otakudom wasn't as much his own self-therapy as it was a shot at fans. The whole "reality/dream" speech seems to be Anno telling himself (and us) that for a short time his dream and reality came together; NGE was a dream, but it was also his reality, his job. How does one reconcile them when it's over?
But I don't agree about humans suppressing their unconsciousness in Evangelion, least of all in jungian sense. That's something I don't see NGE aiming at thematically.
How can you not? For the entire early series we see everyone operating fully in "persona" mode, trying to hide from the true "thems" underneath that are screaming to get out. All we get are short glimpses of those unconscious "beginnings" that formed each of them, and it's only through contact with the Angels that we finally get to explore them fully and it practically shatters all of them.
However it was conscious being already - this is something we see in Eva. Evolution of angels. What start seemingly as random, instinctual monsters are revealed to be by series end humans just like us under "different guise".
But was it an evolution? Were they all the same psychologically and we only realize it later on? Were they are distinct individuals from the start? We get such limited glimpses into their psychology and they all seem so differently driven it's hard to say precisely.
Xard
Which is a bit of an inconsistency seeing as how when Asuka's and Rei's Eva's got eye and arm damaged their eye and arm was damaged too; how did Shinji escape? Maybe he wasn't synced enough? He certainly remembers his arm being torn though.
It's simple case of not being synced enough
All very true; though I often wondered if Anno's indictment of otakudom wasn't as much his own self-therapy as it was a shot at fans. The whole "reality/dream" speech seems to be Anno telling himself (and us) that for a short time his dream and reality came together; NGE was a dream, but it was also his reality, his job. How does one reconcile them when it's over?
Yes, the self-vindicament was part of it too, just like Lennon's Working Class Hero is attack on himself too.
However, the attack part instead of self criticism is dominating one in that scene, especially in context of having those shootings of movie theater goers (with 99,99 % chance material is from screening of Death&Rebirth!) *and* keeping in mind the cut live action material which further distances material from Anno's philosophical musings to him rubbing cinema verite reality on face of his escapistic audience.
How can you not? For the entire early series we see everyone operating fully in "persona" mode, trying to hide from the true "thems" underneath that are screaming to get out. All we get are short glimpses of those unconscious "beginnings" that formed each of them, and it's only through contact with the Angels that we finally get to explore them fully and it practically shatters all of them.
This is just quite "basic" (or rather, "normal") psychological stuff, part of human condition and whatnot bla bla bla. Evangelion however does not emphazise by any means having good relationship with your larger Self, it is through and through existentialist work. It's not "to have meaning for my life I must rekindle the long forgotten links and harmony between Me and the deep origins of psyche and cherish the archetypal, godly imagery unique to men" but "to have meaning for my life I must make one according to my own free will"
But was it an evolution? Were they all the same psychologically and we only realize it later on? Were they are distinct individuals from the start? We get such limited glimpses into their psychology and they all seem so differently driven it's hard to say precisely.
Jimbo
However, the attack part instead of self criticism is dominating one in that scene,
I'm not so sure it's dominating... It's too... empathetic for me to take it so strongly in that way. To me, it's more like an intervention done by someone who's been there. It's less judgmental, more understanding, but still resolved.
Evangelion however does not emphazise by any means having good relationship with your larger Self, it is through and through existentialist work. It's not "to have meaning for my life I must rekindle the long forgotten links and harmony between Me and the deep origins of psyche and cherish the archetypal, godly imagery unique to men" but "to have meaning for my life I must make one according to my own free will"
I don't think what I'm discussing and what you're discussing is necessarily in conflict. NGE is also about beginnings and how building on damaged beginnings and ignore it is like building a skyscraper on cracker jacks; those beginnings are certainly represented by the unconscious (in NGE, the personal unconscious especially). It certainly suggests one has to recognize those beginnings instead of suppressing them, learn to, well, learn from them instead of using them as a basis for a damaging psychology that will effect you your entire life.
Xard
I'm not so sure it's dominating... It's too... empathetic for me to take it so strongly in that way. To me, it's more like an intervention done by someone who's been there. It's less judgmental, more understanding, but still resolved.
Yes, there is empathic part in it. However, even at his mellowest Anno could be furious - for example the whole "Congrazulations to all children!" screen in the very end of EoTV was very condescending too.
Live action scene serves exactly same purpose (and is complete opposite too) as Ep26's "alternative reality" segment, which could be summed as one of Anno's most blatant "anime sucks and so do you, get real" grumblings.
It is stereotypical anime to extreme, something from earlier eps style; kind of stuff many fans wanted. Fans who were furious and let down by NGE's descend to madness that is its second half and especially ending. It is Anno's way telling "look, we could've given you this too. But see how shallow and childish this all is?" Considering how much they used what little remained of their budget on that scene makes gradual descent to mere storyboards in that scene seem like Anno's way to show artificial nature of animation and thing what they just saw. It's nothing but this in the end.
In live action section the significance of Rei Misato Asuka trio standing among otherwise real and normal scene opens fully by this. Imposing fantasy on reality indeed.
Anno's hostility in interviews following NGE also reinforces this.
And really, what could be more blatant bitchslap than suddenly your promised "dream movie" *stops* and you start to get footage of your fellow Eva geeks, propably even recognizing yourself in the audience? It is really kinda nasty.
I don't think what I'm discussing and what you're discussing is necessarily in conflict. NGE is also about beginnings and how building on damaged beginnings and ignore it is like building a skyscraper on cracker jacks; those beginnings are certainly represented by the unconscious (in NGE, the personal unconscious especially). It certainly suggests one has to recognize those beginnings instead of suppressing them, learn to, well, learn from them instead of using them as a basis for a damaging psychology that will effect you your entire life.
Yes indeed. But we're not in the very specific Jungian subconsciousness stuff any more in this case - we're discussing therapy now ;)
Jimbo
even at his mellowest Anno could be furious - for example the whole "Congrazulations to all children!" screen in the very end of EoTV was very condescending too.
I never took that as condescending but a perfect representation of the false happiness of Instrumentality. At the same time I do think there's something genuine in it as well; I don't think he could include the "to my father/mother" part without some genuineness in it. Maybe it has an odd element of all three; genuine, condescending, and false happiness; like much of the series it's a complex paradox.
...makes gradual descent to mere storyboards in that scene seem like Anno's way to show artificial nature of animation and thing what they just saw. It's nothing but this in the end.
I always wondered if FLCL took their lead from NGE in its manga scenes that did almost the same thing. There's certainly a superflat, very self-conscious metafictional/meta-anime element to that show too.
In live action section the significance of Rei Misato Asuka trio standing among otherwise real and normal scene opens fully by this. Imposing fantasy on reality indeed.
That also goes back to what I said about Anno trying to resolve the fact that fantasy was his reality for a short time.
Your post has a lot of good interpretation that I can't really find any fault with. Looks like we're finally in agreement here.
But we're not in the very specific Jungian subconsciousness stuff any more in this case - we're discussing therapy now
Well, Jung WAS a therapist and most of his concepts were born out of empirical practice, so I don't think it's that far off.
Xard
I never took that as condescending but a perfect representation of the false happiness of Instrumentality. At the same time I do think there's something genuine in it as well; I don't think he could include the "to my father/mother" part without some genuineness in it. Maybe it has an odd element of all three; genuine, condescending, and false happiness; like much of the series it's a complex paradox.
right, I knew I forgot something, the Ep 26 deal with scripts... There's nothing *false happiness* in EoTV's ending scene. On the contrary, it stands as moment when Shinji is finally ready to search for true happiness in the series and stands as contrast to earlier show. False happiness is very last word I'd use for EoTV, it is as crystalline and pure as Anno ever was.
And congrazulations scene is absolutely genuine as well, it is genuinely happy. If it wasn't it would be just ironic statement.
That simple title placard *contains 3 levels of meaning*. And that is absolutely incredible:
1st level: What it seems to be. Omedeto! Genuine expression of happiness 2nd level: Reference to Ideon's bittersweet ending (lending EoTV's ending subtle level of bittersweetness which won't be obvious before End of Evangelion came out) 3rd level: It is strong political statement. This 3rd level is one we've talked about
I always wondered if FLCL took their lead from NGE in its manga scenes that did almost the same thing. There's certainly a superflat, very self-conscious metafictional/meta-anime element to that show too.
Watch Kare Kano. Now. You'll see FLCL's stylistical roots in clear daylight...
Last I told you about symbolic meaning of traffic lights in the show. Turns out same symbolism holds on to all these shots of construction yards, power poles, signs etc. they all represent feels or moods of characters or storypoint. They're not just pillow shots, they bear a lot meaning too. Fantastic.
You recognize many things of FLCL can be traced back to Kare Kano. And a lot of Kare Kano's storytelling can be brought back to not only in Anno's unique brilliance as director (evident since start) but to specific innovations he made up in NGE's Eps like 20 and EoTV.
In fact show occasionally bears so much resemblance to EoTV (while still being absolutely different in tone and al) it is uncanny. Anno took EoTV approach, thought "hmm, let's tell usual comedic storyline via these abstractions" and went on with it.
You can also find similar manga scene from Kare Kano.
That also goes back to what I said about Anno trying to resolve the fact that fantasy was his reality for a short time.
Your post has a lot of good interpretation that I can't really find any fault with. Looks like we're finally in agreement here. []
Yayy! :)
And I think you're absolutely right too. That was aspect I never considered but now seems obvious. Damnit, that scene is even more multifaceted than it already was...
Well, Jung WAS a therapist and most of his concepts were born out of empirical practice, so I don't think it's that far off.
Very true. But at this point we've moved past archetypes etc. That's what I ment ;)
Jimbo
nothing *false happiness* in EoTV's ending scene.
I think I disagree; it is clearly a kind of resolution-less resolution. It ends with a facade of happiness that doesn't really hide it's lack of an ending; I think this is what the outraged fans picked up on during its initial airing. And I think the false happiness is necessary to contrast the bleakness of One More Final
But at this point we've moved past archetypes etc.
What was this discussion even about again?
Xard
I think I disagree; it is clearly a kind of resolution-less resolution. It ends with a facade of happiness that doesn't really hide it's lack of an ending; I think this is what the outraged fans picked up on during its initial airing. And I think the false happiness is necessary to contrast the bleakness of One More Final.
Yes, and I think your view is in this case narrowed and twisted by your perceiving "blue=false" and "red=real" everywhere. If it wasn't for this I'd say you wouldn't view the final scene in that particular way.
Is "but I wanted to see them again" part in EoE (with what omedeto scene corresponds) "false" or "fake" by any means? No. Absolutely not.
You have to remember if it was up to Anno EoTV was already perfect ending in which all he wanted to say came out. End of Evangelion is unnecessary as long as the "message" of show is considered.
If last scene was depiction of "false happiness" that would *undermine everything he had tried to express*. It wouldn't have depicted Shinji's (and Anno's) thriumph over himself, finding selfworth and embracing the world again (the false escapism of movie sets crumble down in very end of EoTV). It would've signified nothing.
There is no other reason for you to view scene depicting "false happiness" if it wasn't for the "red/blue" deal. Which does not apply here IMO in the way you mean it.
Besides, EoE scene that corresponds with EoTV's end isn't "false happiness" either so this view stands utterly without reason behind it.
- harumph*
What was this discussion even about again? []
Well, we had been discussing Jungian subconscious and how it relates to NGE :P
Jimbo
Yes, and I think your view is in this case narrowed and twisted by your perceiving "blue=false" and "red=real" everywhere. If it wasn't for this I'd say you wouldn't view the final scene in that particular way.
It was actually Reichu that originally pointed that out to me; before I ever came up with the more extensive red/blue motif symbolism of mine. The existence of the motif had been noted by others long before I got a hold of it, and I remember the shift was one piece of evidence noted in one thread which analyzed the nature of the endings. It was only after interpreting many of the other elements that I can to put blue/red together in a more complex form than I had ever read about it or into it before.
Is "but I wanted to see them again" part in EoE (with what omedeto scene corresponds) "false" or "fake" by any means? No. Absolutely not.
Perhaps false/fake are the wrong words... EoE still treats Instrumentality as a very comfortable place. This comfortableness contrasts with the harshness of One More Final, and I don't doubt the genuineness of Shinji's feelings or the various speeches by Yui, Rei, and Kaworu. But at the same time it shows Instrumentality as a perfect existence where idealism is easy; contrasted against reality in One More Final where it's anything BUT easy. EoTV has a certain element of that as well; the "omedetou!" scene is TOO happy, TOO comfortably, TOO easy after all that's happened and especially compared to what reality is actually like.
I guess I could say it's a genuine happiness generated by the non-reality (which could be seen as "falseness") of Instrumentality. So it's not to say that the message and revelation is false, fake, disingenuous, or insignificant; it's simply to say that coming to the revelation in such a state is easy when you live in a comfortable ideal - living that revelation and ideal within a reality that's anything but comfortable is something completely different.
Kare Kano is just absolutely brilliant directingwise. Minus NGE and Cowboy Bebop (plus possibly Haibane Renmei...naahh, not HR) you won't find better *directed* anime show than that.
Will see it soon. I'd definitely put Haibane Renmei in that same category; it has the quiet patience, humor, warmth, observation, and subtle depth of Ozu. It's quite the anime rarity. Texhnolyze certainly belongs in that company as well; an almost Tarkovsky-an work.
we had been discussing Jungian subconscious and how it relates to NGE
Ah, yes; I see them all over the place, whether directly intended by Anno or not.
Xard
It was actually Reichu that originally pointed that out to me; before I ever came up with the more extensive red/blue motif symbolism of mine. The existence of the motif had been noted by others long before I got a hold of it, and I remember the shift was one piece of evidence noted in one thread which analyzed the nature of the endings. It was only after interpreting many of the other elements that I can to put blue/red together in a more complex form than I had ever read about it or into it before.
I'm still not absolute convinced of it though; it *does* certainly exist when it comes to waves however. Not necerrasily as "false" but certainly as symbolising the ease (of non-existence & return to womb and Mother)... That's what waves seem to symbolize in NGE (they're prominent whenever character nigh-literally returns to womb of EVA e.g eps 20 & 25') and their change to harsh red in One More Final is very powerful and symbolic way to reinforce whole feel/purpose of the scene.
I'm still doubtful to how *far* you can take this motif.
Perhaps false/fake are the wrong words... EoE still treats Instrumentality as a very comfortable place. This comfortableness contrasts with the harshness of One More Final, and I don't doubt the genuineness of Shinji's feelings or the various speeches by Yui, Rei, and Kaworu.
Well now we're in agreement here!
But at the same time it shows Instrumentality as a perfect existence where idealism is easy; contrasted against reality in One More Final where it's anything BUT easy. EoTV has a certain element of that as well; the "omedetou!" scene is TOO happy, TOO comfortably, TOO easy after all that's happened and especially compared to what reality is actually like.
EoTV's raginly happy ending to me has never seemed out of place and gradually and logically develops throughout those last two eps. Even just before "I'M ON A BIG BLUE BALL" (to paraphrase Spencer) it works on "maybe's" largerly.
You see, Evangelion is like a coin. On other side there's narrative and storyline, on other side themes. Most of the time first side is what is shown clearly, but in EoTV coin is flipped and the themes side comes to light, even pretty much obliterating the plot.
Yui's "if he has will to live then anywhere can be heaven" could be viewed as show's main theme, in the end (this of course comes under many other titles during show also). As whole EoTV operates on purely idealistic, thematic and abstractic levels EoTV's overtly happy "enlightened" feel is warranted and pretty much only proper option. One More Final depicts the realism and the "life still is a bitch even if you change your opinion; this ain't land of lollipops") struggle of having meaning.
However EoTV is as I said utterly thematic, and thus its ending by definition is simply filtered, crystalline clarity of main theme. It is platonic idea of show's ending. One More Final shows how it must in the end operate in harsh world.
EoTV ending along lines of EoE would've added nothing as it would've suddenly operated on less higher planes suddenly
I guess I could say it's a genuine happiness generated by the non-reality (which could be seen as "falseness") of Instrumentality. So it's not to say that the message and revelation is false, fake, disingenuous, or insignificant; it's simply to say that coming to the revelation in such a state is easy when you live in a comfortable ideal - living that revelation and ideal within a reality that's anything but comfortable is something completely different.
Yes! This is my view too. Deciding something is easy compared to actually realizing your decisions. Though I'd change "generated by the non-reality" (which it isn't for reasons above) to "generated by Will that goes yet unchallenged" or something like that.
Jimbo
I'm still doubtful to how *far* you can take this motif.
When I came up with the more elaborate theory it seemed to fit every time I noted it in the series.
EoTV's raginly happy ending to me has never seemed out of place and gradually and logically develops throughout those last two eps.
It only makes sense and fits in the abstract world that is Instrumentality that's been created over the last two eps.; but even its abstractness separates it from the reality of the series.
You see, Evangelion is like a coin...
That interp sounds just like me when I first got into NGE!
As whole EoTV operates on purely idealistic, thematic and abstractic levels EoTV's overtly happy "enlightened" feel is warranted and pretty much only proper option. One More Final depicts the realism and the "life still is a bitch even if you change your opinion; this ain't land of lollipops") struggle of having meaning.
Seems like we're more or less on the same page with this.
EoTV ending along lines of EoE would've added nothing as it would've suddenly operated on less higher planes suddenly
I don't think it needs any distinction between higher/lesser plain; it's simply the difference between theory and practice. EoTV demonstrates the former, EoE the latter. But like the series as a whole, and like that coin, it doesn't work without both sides in harmony. EoTV has the idealism and thematic substance but not the means to put it to use, EoE presents the reality and means to put it to use, but tends to suffocate those idealistic revelations. I'm not sure if Anno ever meant to present a "whole" ending, and that's part of the reason I think NGE works so well is because it lacks traditional revolution. Instead Anno does something much smarter and gives us both pieces and says "you need both, but it won't be easy"; so in EoTV we get the idea, in EoE we get the reality, and since EoE continues after the end of EoTV all we get is a glimmer of hope that the two can eventually come together.
Xard
When I came up with the more elaborate theory it seemed to fit every time I noted it in the series.
that may be the case. Or not. :P
It only makes sense and fits in the abstract world that is Instrumentality that's been created over the last two eps.; but even its abstractness separates it from the reality of the series.
I can hardly call NGE's run before ending(s) representing "reality" except in extremely symbolic and peculiar ways.
Yeah, I'm nitpicking. :P
Instrumentality has always been just plot device that gaved legitimate way to dive in show's deepest, muddliest philosophical waters. It is similar how angel encounters become more and more just legitimate ways to studying human mind and characters.
( "off-topic moment": I think in Eva community the highly abstract and symbolic nature of Angels is often forgotten as they have basic explanations in the end as "alternate forms of humanity" and "children of SoL called Adam". Anno has flatout stated that angels represent "feelings of his generation"... the "enemy" is unexplainable, mysterious and vague and can strike from anywhere at any moment. US's terrorism paranoia after 2001 was just more fundamental and concrete version of this vague anxiety that plagues modern world. It is also chillingly fitting with sarin gas attacks that deeply disturbed Japan in 1995...
Anno's life experiences work their way in story often in subtle . For example I recently learned Touji's loss of leg is *exactly similar to Anno's father*. What was not said is how he lost it. I wonder if Anno blamed himself for this loss somehow, which propably didn't help his feelings of self-woth at all. This might not be the case, but it is possiblity. I wonder how much more possibly "autobiographical" details we can find out from NGE.)
EoTV is NGE at its most purest. Everything except the heart of show is expelled from it. Thus "it only makes sense in abstract world of Instrumentality" isn't really any sort of failure. This is NGE at its most fundamental. Take it or leave it.
That interp sounds just like me when I first got into NGE! []
Well, it is common metaphor because it is so fitting.
Seems like we're more or less on the same page with this.
yay :)
I don't think it needs any distinction between higher/lesser plain; it's simply the difference between theory and practice. EoTV demonstrates the former, EoE the latter. But like the series as a whole, and like that coin, it doesn't work without both sides in harmony. EoTV has the idealism and thematic substance but not the means to put it to use, EoE presents the reality and means to put it to use, but tends to suffocate those idealistic revelations. I'm not sure if Anno ever meant to present a "whole" ending, and that's part of the reason I think NGE works so well is because it lacks traditional revolution. Instead Anno does something much smarter and gives us both pieces and says "you need both, but it won't be easy"; so in EoTV we get the idea, in EoE we get the reality, and since EoE continues after the end of EoTV all we get is a glimmer of hope that the two can eventually come together.
I beg to differ. As far as I'm considered either of endings works brilliantly as it is, especially End of Evangelion. EoE gets just as abstract and philosophical as EoTV in its latter half. It really is reprise largerly.
Thus especially End of Evangelion works as magnificent ending in all levels. EoTV fails if show is ment to have conclusive end to storyline, but storyline in NGE can be viewed as quite "obsolete" when it comes to essentials. Thus EoTV alone can be viewed as entirely justifiable ending to show.
Of course EoTV/EoE taken together is just magnifico, but I disagree that they need each other.
Jimbo
I can hardly call NGE's run before ending(s) representing "reality" except in extremely symbolic and peculiar ways.
I should say "in series' fictional reality".
Instrumentality has always been just plot device that gaved legitimate way to dive in show's deepest, muddliest philosophical waters. It is similar how angel encounters become more and more just legitimate ways to studying human mind and characters.
Absolutely. Nobody can deny its nature as a plot device, yet the series is full of them and helps bring out the metafictional, deconstructionist aspect.
I think in Eva community the highly abstract and symbolic nature of Angels is often forgotten as they have basic explanations in the end as "alternate forms of humanity" and "children of SoL called Adam". Anno has flatout stated that angels represent "feelings of his generation"... the "enemy" is unexplainable, mysterious and vague and can strike from anywhere at any moment. US's terrorism paranoia after 2001 was just more fundamental and concrete version of this vague anxiety that plagues modern world. It is also chillingly fitting with sarin gas attacks that deeply disturbed Japan in 1995.
Absolutely, and this element is one reason I praise Hiroki Azuma's "Anime or Something Like it" article because it does something that most nobody in the West can do and that's delve into NGE's political and cultural subtext. I've always felt like Western audiences have missed out on an entire level of NGE because of that.
For example I recently learned Touji's loss of leg is *exactly similar to Anno's father*.
Did not know that; very interesting.
EoTV is NGE at its most purest. Everything except the heart of show is expelled from it. Thus "it only makes sense in abstract world of Instrumentality" isn't really any sort of failure. This is NGE at its most fundamental. Take it or leave it.
All I can do is . I never ever meant that Instrumentality is "false" in terms of the emotions and thoughts expressed through it. What I meant was that in the context of the fictional world's reality it is represented as the "other" side, the place of escape, comfort, etc. I guess one irony of NGE is that the fictional world's reality is the one most "fake" to our reality while Instrumentality is the most "fake" to the characters and "real" to us and Anno (I hope that makes sense).
I beg to differ.
Don't misunderstand when I say the endings lack a complete resolution; I absolutely adore both and I think a large part of the reason they work so well is because of how well they compliment each other. But I don't see either as conclusive endings in the traditional sense. I can't think of another epic that ends even remotely like it. I think it does leave a bit of an uncomfortable yearning. I once explained it in my "Kinda-Sorta Eva Magnum Opus" as this:
It is only appropriate that End of Evangelion ends not with an ending, but a new beginning. The end reveals that NGE was not a journey towards a conclusion, but a journey towards a realization; towards the death of old paradigms and the rebirth of oneself and the world of reality around them. Moreover, it’s only logical that this rebirth is not depicted as a painless one, but one that produces arguably more pain and confusion than that which the previous state held; a rebirth that leaves the comfort of familiar ways behind to embrace the uncertainty of a new and frightening path not yet taken. But unlike that previous state, the rebirth holds one advantage, and I liken it to exiting hell to enter the maze in that now exists a hope that you can, of your own volition, find the light to guide your way in the right direction. It is also fitting that such an ending causes fits to those who demand resolution. But how appropriate is it that NGE begins with the familiar, and ends in a place that is so unfamiliar, uncomfortable, and dangerous to make us long for the comfort of that which came before?
Xard
I should say "in series' fictional reality". []
"that's more like it" :P
Absolutely. Nobody can deny its nature as a plot device, yet the series is full of them and helps bring out the metafictional, deconstructionist aspect.
Indeed.
By the way, ever considered how we pretty much *never* see anyone not somehow linked to NERV or main characters in show? Ever noticed how much *stage* Tokyo 3 seems to be like?
- Misato lives alone in this huge apartment - Apart from short scene in Ep 9 we only see pilot candidates in school - Civilians are nigh non-existent - The artificiality of all the "warning" signs etc. as they serve no purpose at all
NGE's world is truly barren and it adds to shows intensity and feel of fate of the world resting on shoulders of these few characters. Further the show goes more and more Tokyo 3 seems to be mere props
Then in Ep 26 we see Shinji staring at Tokyo 3 "props"...
It is truly interesting metafictional element
Absolutely, and this element is one reason I praise Hiroki Azuma's "Anime or Something Like it" article because it does something that most nobody in the West can do and that's delve into NGE's political and cultural subtext. I've always felt like Western audiences have missed out on an entire level of NGE because of that.
This is true. However, what is true goldmine regarding these often forgotten elements in Evangelion is Krystian Woznicki's "Something Like Anime" interview found here: http://www.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-9802/msg00101.html
What is particularly interesting is that *Anno was not familiar with Godard during time he made NGE*. His Godardesque aspects in narrative, namely the fastfastfastcutting of images originated from rather obscure japanese director from 70's.
However, he did it way slower than Anno (and Godard did) among other things.
What is so interesting about this is that Anno basically invented same thing as Godard did, oblivious to the Big G.
This is specific quote regarding angels and Evangelion's strong connection to 90's Japan:
" You can see that the angels get the form of a virus in some of the episodes. >>Evangelion<< describes the concept of the enemy in the 90's Japanese situation, such as Aum. In the 90's the Japanese complain about things getting worse and worse in economy and society, etc. Many have a very critical feeling about the Japanese situation, while they can not trace the source of this development. Their feelings circulate in vain, without identifying what/who the enemy is. This condition is well described in >>Evangelion<<. "
and
"The angels change their form for example into pyramids, into shadows. I asked Anno about such abstract characteristics of the angels. He said that this reflects the feelings of his generation. For his generation the enemy is not political. It is also not definite. I mentioned to Anno that such abstract characteristics of the enemy are very close to the conception of Aum as enemy (e.g. poison gas) which he admitted."
Did not know that; very interesting.
I stumbled upon info as I looked ol' webarchived english page of Kare Kano from 90's (remember GAINAX used to have english pages eons ago).
It was very surprising and forced me to reconsider just how absolutely direct links I could find to Anno's character and history in NGE.
All I can do is [] . I never ever meant that Instrumentality is "false" in terms of the emotions and thoughts expressed through it. What I meant was that in the context of the fictional world's reality it is represented as the "other" side, the place of escape, comfort, etc. I guess one irony of NGE is that the fictional world's reality is the one most "fake" to our reality while Instrumentality is the most "fake" to the characters and "real" to us and Anno (I hope that makes sense).
Ahh, I understand now. And yeah, I agree
Don't misunderstand when I say the endings lack a complete resolution; I absolutely adore both and I think a large part of the reason they work so well is because of how well they compliment each other. But I don't see either as conclusive endings in the traditional sense. I can't think of another epic that ends even remotely like it. I think it does leave a bit of an uncomfortable yearning. I once explained it in my "Kinda-Sorta Eva Magnum Opus" as this:
I see what you mean, but how exactly Eps 1-24 + End of Evangelion wouldn't be conclusive? I can understand Eps 1-24 + EoTV viewed as such, but not so much EoE.
I don't think the need is essential, but the series certainly loses something without either.
Well, of course. I think it is pretty wild that NGE secured both spots 1 and 2 in my list of all time best endings *laughs*
Jimbo
By the way, ever considered how we pretty much *never* see anyone not somehow linked to NERV or main characters in show? Ever noticed how much *stage* Tokyo 3 seems to be like?
Very interesting. I never really thought about the very "staged" element of the setting, but you're definitely right.
This is true. However, what is true goldmine regarding these often forgotten elements in Evangelion is Krystian Woznicki's "Something Like Anime" interview found here:
Ooh, thanks for the link. *bookmarked*
What is particularly interesting is that *Anno was not familiar with Godard during time he made NGE*. His Godardesque aspects in narrative, namely the fastfastfastcutting of images originated from rather obscure japanese director from 70's.
Even MORE interesting. Godard's influence has been so vast that it's certainly not inconceivable that Anno was inspired from another director who knew Godard. Something similar happened with Hou Hsiao-hsien whose been compared to Ozu since critics first took notice in the late 80s, yet he didn't see an Ozu film until the early 90s. I remember actually talking with worov (maybe 2001 board's biggest fan/defender) about whether or not Anno was consciously borrowing from the major directors or if it just happened naturally. I always noticed big Wellesian framing techniques in the early part of the series (especially how Anno leads the eye where he wants it).
" You can see that the angels get the form of a virus in some of the episodes. >>Evangelion<< describes the concept of the enemy in the 90's Japanese situation, such as Aum. In the 90's the Japanese complain about things getting worse and worse in economy and society, etc. Many have a very critical feeling about the Japanese situation, while they can not trace the source of this development. Their feelings circulate in vain, without identifying what/who the enemy is. This condition is well described in >>Evangelion<<. "
"The angels change their form for example into pyramids, into shadows. I asked Anno about such abstract characteristics of the angels. He said that this reflects the feelings of his generation. For his generation the enemy is not political. It is also not definite. I mentioned to Anno that such abstract characteristics of the enemy are very close to the conception of Aum as enemy (e.g. poison gas) which he admitted."
Azuma said something very similar in his article as well. Nice to get an even further elaboration on the topic.
I see what you mean, but how exactly Eps 1-24 + End of Evangelion wouldn't be conclusive?
I think it's the fact that NGE doesn't end either with traditional uplift or tragedy. It ends at a beginning; after the apocalypse you have a rebirth but then we're left after almost 12 hours of a series with no knowledge of what ends up happening with these characters. But I've always said that element was incredibly important to get the message across.
Xard
Very interesting. I never really thought about the very "staged" element of the setting, but you're definitely right.
I'm almost sad I can't claim the notion as my own, initially. ( I got it from here http://koti.phnet.fi/otaku/eva/evangelion.html )
Here's translation of part that initially made me pay attention to this thing:
"It is worth noting that excluding NERV's people and Shinji's class humans make their mark on milieu by their by their absence. Yes, others do exist, but they're never shown. Further the story continues more the warning systems, forbidding signs and streetlights seem to be mere props to maintain illusion of normal conditions, which do not exist, at least not in 2015's Neo-Tokyo. We know other countries do exist, such as United States in which mass producing of Eva units is started or Germany, home of second pilot Soryu Asuka Langley and Eva-02, but they're merely referential like Pen Pen's new home where Misato sends him near end of the series.
Here is world where nothing exists except NERV. By focusing only on people with some connection with NERV, and excluding all others, makers were able to succesfully marry the barren nature of post apocalyptic world with battle organization that acts like fate of the world depended on them; and so it literally depends, in more than a one way.
This is what makes Evangelion so intensitive and scenery of Neo-Tokyo so empty."
We can also remember Shinji's words in Ep 2: "this is sad/lonely city, isn't it?"
Ooh, thanks for the link. *bookmarked*
You're welcome.
Even MORE interesting. Godard's influence has been so vast that it's certainly not inconceivable that Anno was inspired from another director who knew Godard.
Yes! This is exactly what happened. That particular director was inspired by Godard, but his "fastcutting" technique was much slower and more commoner. Thus when Anno took the "epilepsy-route" to directly connect with viewers subconscious levels in narrative form he came up with idea himself instead of copying it from Godard.
Something similar happened with Hou Hsiao-hsien whose been compared to Ozu since critics first took notice in the late 80s, yet he didn't see an Ozu film until the early 90s.
Yeah, giants of cinema have influenced nigh everyone, regardless if influence is acknowledged or not.
Come to think of it, I wonder if Ozu invented pillow shots. It seems quite likely as term was coined some years after his death by japanese critic writing on his film, drawing connection to "pillow words" in japanese poetry.
I remember actually talking with worov (maybe 2001 board's biggest fan/defender) about whether or not Anno was consciously borrowing from the major directors or if it just happened naturally.
This reminds me; every once in a while 40-something cinephile stumbled upon NGE, loved it and even made some posts in Evageeks. I remember at least one who was introduced to series by you. Did worov like it or not?
On worov: Guy is clearly intelligent (quote he uses as his sig gains props too), but I'm not sure if I like the guy from what I've seen. He acts horribly jerkish to people he dislikes, whether they're trolls or not.
I always noticed big Wellesian framing techniques in the early part of the series (especially how Anno leads the eye where he wants it).
Could you elaborate on this :)
Also, maybe you could share a word on L&P's editing here too ;P
Azuma said something very similar in his article as well. Nice to get an even further elaboration on the topic.
Indeed
I think it's the fact that NGE doesn't end either with traditional uplift or tragedy. It ends at a beginning; after the apocalypse you have a rebirth but then we're left after almost 12 hours of a series with no knowledge of what ends up happening with these characters. But I've always said that element was incredibly important to get the message across.
Ahh...
I'd say it is problem with audience exceptations then ;)
And ending show with rebirth (in many ways. And *it is* "Gospel of New Creation/Beginning/Genesis" after all) was the only proper thing to do IMO
Jimbo
I'm almost sad I can't claim the notion as my own, initially. ( I got it from here http://koti.phnet.fi/otaku/eva/evangelion.html ) Here's translation of part that initially made me pay attention to this thing:
Thanks for the translation; mind doing the whole thing?
Here is world where nothing exists except NERV. By focusing only on people with some connection with NERV, and excluding all others, makers were able to succesfully marry the barren nature of post apocalyptic world with battle organization that acts like fate of the world depended on them; and so it literally depends, in more than a one way.
Again, very interesting. One thing I've always loved about NGE is how it combines the ginourmous epic with the most intimately personal character study; it reminds me of War and Peace in that aspect of how you get this very personal look at world-changing events.
This is exactly what happened. That particular director was inspired by Godard, but his "fastcutting" technique was much slower and more commoner. Thus when Anno took the "epilepsy-route" to directly connect with viewers subconscious levels in narrative form he came up with idea himself instead of copying it from Godard.
I wonder where Anno took his ellipses/non-sequitor stuff from; I mean those elements where he elides exposition or narrative events in favor of things that might initially and superficially seem inconsequential and things such as the psychological parts and EoTV where we have dialogue but it's less dialogue and more of a shared monologue.
Could you elaborate on this
The first episode is a perfect example; Shinji is framed in between Misato and Ritsuko twice; the first time in the elevator it's from a low angle so we're looking UP at the two of them, the second time it's with Sho in the background now doing a kind of "triple/doubled" frame with the 3 foreground characters but the suggestive Sho behind Shinji (to our perspective). The "leading eye" element has a good example where Shinji first realizes Gendo is above behind the glass and the camera follows Sho's horn up which is "pointing" to Gendo, being suggestive of him being a kind of king of everything that's going on.
I'd say it is problem with audience exceptations then
True, but I don't think that's a particularly unreasonable expectation; tragedy and uplift have been the constants in the realms of fiction and I can't think of many epics that end like NGE.
