Theory and Analysis Talk:Kaworu's Agenda

Alternate Theories besides Casablanca Theory?

Requesting that this idea/theory be addressed in some form on this page? http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?p=440832#440832 Unless it was already and I completely missed it. I feel that alternate possibilities should be mentioned since we can only speculate on just what the deal with Kaworu's musings are. Perhaps assumptions of Kaworu finding a bigger Adam (and Gendo only had a part) are mentioned somewhere on that page and I just missed it, but I figured I'd point this out. --Sailor Star Dust 23:16, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

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This page is pretty ugly as is right now. I copied, pasted, and edited from something I had written in Microsoft Word, so any beautifying anyone could do would be much appreciated. Also, some images are needed. Specifically Kaworu at the lake surrounded by the 15 Seele monuments. --Eva Yojimbo 15:24, 18 August 2007 (EDT)

I uploaded your images; you can find them in the screenshots category. (Go to the "Community portal", at the very bottom, for a shortcut.) Try inserting them yourself -- it's good practice.

Also, nuke this (the bolded part):

Note how many times the word "Hope" is used in this exchange. It's even capitalized once where it shouldn't be. There is no capitalization in Japanese, but it's possible this could've been merely emphasized in the original script, and capitalized in the sub. This "hope" thing is very possibly an example of Anno playing word games.

I already told you this was just a liberty of translation and it doesn't mean anything. Other people who know any Japanese will tell you the same thing.

Kibou is written in katakana once, when Kaworu repeats it to Seele emphatically, but is otherwise written with the kanji having the meaning "hope". I'm not sure if this eliminates the possibility of "word games" or not.

Also, pick up the latest version of the scripts at the old site (second to last news post); 24's script was revised to include the old geezer's designations. --Reichu 10:05, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

I'll insert the images ASAP (which might not be for a while as I'll be gone today and likely tomorrow).

With regard to the Hope/translation thing, your explanation seems to (somewhat) back this up unless I'm missing something: Is there any reason it would've been written in katakana one time out of its seven (in the episode) uses if it had no "other" meaning? That also seems like a very funky use of translation liberty, but never mind that...

Will do on the scripts as well.--Eva Yojimbo 11:05, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

It's a translation liberty. Give it up. ::p

Occam's Razor would dictate that the only reason kibou was in katakana that one time was for emphasis, which is evident in Ishida's performance. This is probably an instance of "seeing things that aren't there". --Reichu 11:16, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

If NGE (or any of us) followed Occam's Razor in the least bit we wouldn't still be here! I will not give it up! We all have our quirks and hang-ups when it comes to NGE's "unseeables" and this is one of mine. If you can have yours, I can have mine so... *crossed arms and stern look directed at Grand Mistress.* (please don't behead me...) ;)

EDIT: Image posted and dialogue fixing to come when I get the time. --Eva Yojimbo 11:24, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

Cleanup

I've cleaned up the first section of this page, axing all the "hope wordgames" and "Ghosts of the Lake" stuff. I will tackle the other sections, probably tomorrow. They need a lot of work too. --thewayneiac 19:40 EDT. May 12, 2009.

I'm glad to see the "hope" stuff gone, but maybe the "Ghosts of the Lake" crap can get dumped onto a provisional T&A page that will eventually address (properly) the idea that Armisael was trying to resurrect the Angels and etc.? ("Ghosts" is a 'continuation' of the Armisael thing, albeit not quite as popular.) --Reichu 17:19, 12 May 2009 (PDT)

O.K., I'll see if I can come up with a page for that. That's probably where the one Israfel or two stuff should go as well. If I remember right you had to count Israfel twice to get the Monolith count to match up with the Angel count. (Which was one reason why I was a lake ghost skeptic.) I do support the Armisael Angel resurrection business, however. --thewayneiac 21:12 EDT. May 12, 2009.

The Israfel issue does feature in "Ghosts", but it's really a separate topic. A tangent about whether Israfel has one soul or two would just be out of place on a T&A page about something entirely different. We managed to have a whole thread about Israfel, so coming up with enough content for a corresponding T&A page shouldn't be too hard.

As for the rest of the mess... "Episode 24' Analysis" really isn't a good title, since this is less about Episode 24' and more about Kaworu-Seele machinations. I think Jimbo was trying to condense what he thought were the highlights from that monstrous 24' Plot Hole thread, but it's not really "directed" or non-NPOV enough to work. That disastrously convoluted material really does deserve some well-organized coverage, though, so maybe if we can figure out how we want to go about doing it, we'll have a better idea of how to "best butcher" this particular page? Give me your thoughts, anyhow. --Reichu 19:30, 12 May 2009 (PDT)

I'm thinking about what to do with the rest of this page right now. One thing I noticed is that it makes no mention of Scott's theory that Kaworu knew it wasn't Adam and was actually play-acting to tell Rei "this is Lilith". That should certainly be worked in somewhere.

I agree about the need for a new title. Since this is all about Kaworu's actions and motivations, how about: "Theory and Analysis: Kaworu's Agenda"? "Kaworu's Relationship with Seele" seems too narrow as it's also about Kaworu's motivations re shinji. --thewayneiac 13:27 EDT. May 13, 2009.

BTW is that Israfel thread archived yet? I see "Kaworu Nagisa and the Imaginary Monoliths" and "Armisael in Ep. 23" in the archive, but nothing with Israfel in the title. What was its title? --thewayneiac 18:58 EDT. May 13, 2009.

Doof, I meant to reply to this sooner...

"Kaworu's Agenda" sounds pretty good to me. How do we want to "distill" this incredibly dense topic, though? And, where to even BEGIN? Do you have some kind of basic "outline of attack" in mind already, Wayne? Feel free to work Scott's idea in wherever it fits. Going through old threads might be a good idea -- there's so much material, it would be easy to miss stuff. Then again, it would be just as easy to get overwhelmed.

The Israfel thread took place at EGF; probably why you couldn't find it. Kocchi kocchi.

Let me know if you need any screenshots. I have most of 24 already capped and labeled, so uploading stuff would be easy. --Reichu 15:34, 14 May 2009 (PDT)

My plan of attack is to continue to re-write what's already there first, correcting the NPOV problems and removing the doubious material. Then I'll go over the whole thing and figure out how to re-organize it into something that's less of a shambles. For instance, there's stuff in the "Kaworu and Shinji" section about why Seele sent Kaworu that should probably be in the "Kaworu and Seele" section.

As for screenshots, some of the ones I'll need are already on the wiki, but notably missing is Rei's arrival on the scene in Terminal Dogma, (and the shot that tells us that Kaworu knows that she's there) so I'll be needing that. I'll also need a shot from Kaworu's conversation with Rei in the "We've both taken the Lilim's form" scene. When I bring up Scott's theory, I'll be pointing out that Kaworu had made an earlier attempt to give Rei clues about her origin. --thewayneiac 19:56 EDT. May 14, 2009.

Alright, uploaded probably way more than you need, but you can pick something to your liking. Need anything else from the lake scene?

Do you want me to make any starting motions on the "Angel Rebirth" or "Israfel's Nature" page, or do you already have something in mind for those? --Reichu 17:59, 14 May 2009 (PDT)

I haven't had a chance to think about what to do with the "Angel Rebirth" or Israfel pages yet, so if want to give either of them a shot, that's fine. Thanks for the pics! --thewayneiac 16:45 EDT. May 15, 2009.

Cleaned up the "Finale" section. I'm almost to where I can do a final overhaul, and add the screenshots. --thewayneiac 20:47 EDT. May 15, 2009.

I'm current engaged in reading through threads like this and this to find material for that Angel Rebirth/Ghosts of the Lake thread. I should be able to start shortly.

BTW, what is the source for Anno being the author of the Full OP captions? I brought up the "smile of betrayal" business, so I should probably ref that. --thewayneiac 19:53 EDT. May 23, 2009.

It's been a while since I've checked in on the various T&A pages; I like what you did with the Kaworu/ep. 24' page waneiac; it's certainly much better organized than mine which basically just dumped my rough-draft Word article/summation of the whole plothole thread. So, good job! I only have a few suggestions:

1. I think the "Ghosts of the Lake" should be mentioned and given a link to another article about the subject.

2a I also think the Kibou/Hope/Trick thing should be mentioned. It can be summed up in a sentence and perhaps we can link it to a more encompassing thread on Anno's various motifs. I don't know why this is such an uncredited idea; Hope is a motif throughout the series that starts as early on as ep. 7, and given the nature of 24' it's very possible that Anno is playing word games there. I don't think a writer repeats the same word that many times in that short a period without it having some relevance.

2b. Following from above, I think it would be a good idea to have a page (either in T&A or elsewhere) that has a list of the various motifs throughout Eva. Many are brief and can be covered completely in the page itself, while with others (e.g. train) we can provide a link to the more elaborate article. Just an idea.

3. Most importantly, why was the mention of "Chigau!" = different taken out? This is an important point and can change the reading of the line as to whether Kaworu is talking about the giant/Lilith or if he's referring back to his musings about uniting with Adam and destroying the world. --Eva Yojimbo

The third point stands for me. Chigau is certainly more nuanced than a simple "no", although I object to the present transliteration of the line on the grounds that it could cause a certain level of confusion for those who don't know Japanese. "Ghosts of the Lake" has pretty much landed in the Radioactive Waste category, though. As far as word games are concerned, well...let us see... --UrsusArctos 00:36, 14 June 2009 (PDT)

Thank you for your thoughts, Eva Yojimbo. I added back a version of the "chigau" business, but it seemed so long-winded that I had to footnote it. I don't really agree that it's as important as you say, however. Even if he means "No, I don't have to kill everyone", and not "No, this isn't Adam", he still addresses Lilith as Adam at the beginning of the sequence. So this can't be used to say that he isn't actually making that mistake, as you seemed to be implying in your version. (This is the reason I originally removed it.) My version leaves out the implication that one interpretation excludes the other.

The plan is to write a page called "Theory and Analysis: Angel Rebirth", detailing Armisael and the Angel Tower. The "Ghosts of the Lake" business may warrant a mention there, though I never bought into it myself. I've never seen a convincing argument as to why the Angels would appear to Kaworu as Seele. Are they trying to trick him into resurrecting them by posing as his bosses?

The "kibou" thing is probably out. Reichu is dead against it, and it really does seem to be overanalyzed. They spell it in katakana the first time Kaworu uses it to show that he is giving it special emphasis because it is a new concept to him. --thewayneiac 22:45 EDT. June 15, 2009

In fact, there ought to be space for Misato's reaction in any T&A article. Come to think of it, her surprise about Kaworu being the final Angel was there even in the OA version. Does Misato share the same Amnesia as Kaworu, or did she simply not believe Ritsuko? A notable dub change is the line "An Angel? That boy?" to "Ritsuko was right.". Although the dub is hardly an authority, could Misato actually have rejected what Ritsuko said as a possibility, despite all the weird things going on around Kaworu?--UrsusArctos 06:12, 16 June 2009 (PDT)

It sounds to me more like someone at ADV noticed Misato's amnesia, didn't like it, and wrote it out of the script. --thewayneiac 16:52 EDT. June 16, 2009.

To quote MaggotMaster, I think Misato and Kaworu must have Alzheimer's. Now, how does one account for all the time between whenever Misato visited Ritsuko and Kaworu hijacked Eva-02? --UrsusArctos 18:01, 16 June 2009 (PDT)

That's a good point. You'd think that instead of just letting an Angel run around loose in Nerv Headquarters she'd have done something about it. --thewayneiac 21:33 EDT. June 16, 2009.

The argument from the original thread was whether or not he was addressing the giant as Adam at all. The line about bout "Adam, our mother" could also be a continuing of his musings that he's had throughout the entire descent to TD. But I'll grant that it IS likely he's addressing the giant in that bit. The reason I think "kibou" is important is because if Seele is subtly referring to tricking Kaworu then it really helps make sense out of his musings. Right after the "This is... Lilith" he says "So that's what this is about" as if everything finally clicked; and what would he have realized if it didn't have something to do with what Seele had told him, and him realizing the truth about things? And it makes sense that they would've lied to him if, indeed, they wanted him out of the way. I edited it back in with just a single sentence; I think it's worth leaving up but let Reichu decide. --Eva Yojimbo

Seele would have to be in the same vein as The Riddler and numerous James Bond villains to keep subtly hinting their deception to Kaworu. What happened if Kaworu suddenly thought, "Hey, this isn't exactly right, and doesn't that word mean 'trick'?" Wouldn't Seele's entire careful deception go up in smoke if one little gear clicked in Kaworu's head? Neither am I convinced that this wordplay is for the sake of the audience, because Seele, the same bunch who sent him, are the only ones who could truly have deceived him. Is it a case of Gainax thinking The Viewers Are Morons? Or is there no pun at all? "Kibou" is used to mean "hope" again and again in the show, Episode 07 (The Jet Alone episode) in particular. --UrsusArctos 08:39, 17 June 2009 (PDT)

Reichu already decided and asked for it to be removed long ago. I can see that you feel strongly about this, Eva Yojimbo, but there's really nothing there. --thewayneiac 11:45 EDT. June 17, 2007.

This is really silly; if a valid theory can be expressed in a single sentence it should. Leave it to the readers to decide whether there's anything to it or not. I just find it quite unusual that a writer would use the same word that many times in that short of span in an episode where there clearly looks like there's some deception going on and then have it mean nothing. But whether there is or isn't something to it shouldn't even be the point; this is T&A, that's a theory, it's being expressed in a single sentence, it should be there. --Eva Yojimbo